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Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

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Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#151

Post by giancarlostoro »

eythian wrote: post #91
doiwin wrote: post #90

Everything I know about systemd is bad. When I want to write a script that runs on startup, I expect that I can just put (or link) it in some directory where the scripts are that get started on startup. Or that there is one main script that calls all scripts that are intended to be startet on startup. I do not want to write a "service" that has some "only run once and then discard" flag or whatever. When I want to lo…

That's just saying "I want things to be the way I first learnt them and don't want them to change." This is fine, but you do have to accept that things are going to move on without you.

Heck I hadnt used Linux for a few years and when I got back to it systemd was on every distro I use. I just use it. I dont see the big deal. I grep the piped output of services if I want to narrow things down more just as you would the output of cat or ls or anything on Linux.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#152

Post by madez »

Shish2k wrote: post #102
doiwin wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, no mistakes can ever be criticized. I explained, why systemd is a step in the wrong direction in mutiple ways. That has nothing to do with habbits.

> I explained, why systemd is a step in the wrong direction I see a bunch of "I want X", but I don't see any "why"

But there have been reasons given. They want to use standard tools to deal with the log. They want to see the scripts that manage the system and poke around in it, which has the implicit reason to learn about the system and being able to easily modify it.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#153

Post by syrrim »

Shish2k wrote: post #102
doiwin wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, no mistakes can ever be criticized. I explained, why systemd is a step in the wrong direction in mutiple ways. That has nothing to do with habbits.

> I explained, why systemd is a step in the wrong direction I see a bunch of "I want X", but I don't see any "why"

>I want to use the tools I like

>I want to call a script that does that. A script which I can look at and see what it does

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#154

Post by madhadron »

doiwin wrote: post #90

Everything I know about systemd is bad. When I want to write a script that runs on startup, I expect that I can just put (or link) it in some directory where the scripts are that get started on startup. Or that there is one main script that calls all scripts that are intended to be startet on startup. I do not want to write a "service" that has some "only run once and then discard" flag or whatever. When I want to lo…

> A script which I can look at and see what it does. Like /etc/init.d/apache2. I do not want to execute some magic command like "service apache start" which I have to guess or look up and which gives me no clue about what it does.

Interesting. I feel the other way. Unix failed to provide a real service management system early on, so we have layers of historical cruft (Fork, close all descriptors, fork again, escape process group? Really?), and ended up with all kinds of absurdity in shell scripts to handle it.

The right way is to have a strong system contract on what constitutes a service, and have no wiggle room so that 'service apache start' does a fixed, known thing.

Sadly, systemd has to support all kinds of legacy hacks. A nice way to chart a way forward might be to define a simple contract and require someone to mark a unit file as "legacy" to enable the other possibilities.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#155

Post by madhadron »

madez wrote: post #152
Shish2k wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I explained, why systemd is a step in the wrong direction I see a bunch of "I want X", but I don't see any "why"

But there have been reasons given. They want to use standard tools to deal with the log. They want to see the scripts that manage the system and poke around in it, which has the implicit reason to learn about the system and being able to easily modify it.

> They want to use standard tools to deal with the log.

I have a little sympathy for this one as an old habit if you don't know any better. It's also an extremely inefficient way to work with logs. If you've used a system like Splunk seriously, the idea of going back and grepping through logs on a host with the shell is just frustrating.

> They want to see the scripts that manage the system and poke around in it, which has the implicit reason to learn about the system and being able to easily modify it.

I have no sympathy for this one. Scripts are a terrible place to define policy. They are nigh impossible to audit. They are brittle. They multiply complexity by making everything a special case. They make integration of different parts of the system nearly impossible.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#156

Post by jrugk »

ddalex wrote: post #58
jrugk wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The trend to get rid of systemd and its metastasis into most of Linux is excellent news. I don't know where you're seeing this trend, really. For all major distros, it's been the opposite thus far.

However it's slowing changing. Knoppix has always been seen as a trend setter, and it still has a large influence where it matters - open source maintainers that are not corporate-driven (i.e. Debian).

Knoppix a trendsetter, yeah, maybe in 1995 lol

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#157

Post by Xylakant »

edoceo wrote: post #137
Xylakant wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I much prefer systemd timers over cron. They work just like systemd units and shed all the odd special cases that cron accumulated over the years. They’re pretty well defined in how they behave in face of systems being down while a job was supposed to run (more a desktop thing, but relevant for some server cases as well). It makes sense to use the same config mechanism. Still, systemd timers are exposed to…

Check out fcron, it's the unbundled Cron that works like this.

I’m pretty happy with systemd timers, but I’ll put fcron on the list of things to have a look at. Thanks for the pointer.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#158

Post by jacquesm »

alex7o wrote: post #141
jacquesm wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you use your computer for more than just consumption and you find out that latency wise pulseaudio absolutely sucks. And then you install jack, a bridge from pulse to jack and a whole raft of other fixes to be able to use the same desktop for regular work and audio work. My main gripe with anything from that group of people is that they refuse to play nice with others, and by extension that their code refuses…

When don't we just use jack without pulse audio, most programs support it (VLC,MPV).

Firefox doesn't. They dropped all other audio systems except for pulse! Highly annoying.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#159

Post by tdewitt »

Xylakant wrote: post #109
tdewitt wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is nearly vaporware, gnome 3 is optional, kde plasma is optional, nvidia drivers are optional and have functional FOSS replacements, pulse I'll grant you (and hope you see the irony) and dbus I can't honestly comment on because the little direct interaction I've had with it was fine but mostly I don't think about it. The flaw with your list is that half of it is optional and anyone who doesn't like those thin…

> Wayland is nearly vaporware Fedora has been defaulting to Wayland on fresh installs for at least two or three releases and generally it’s working okish. There’s still a lot of software lacking proper wayland support, though.

Does single window screen sharing work yet?

Perhaps it's just me but I haven't found an xorg problem in my life that's fixed in wayland but I've had a few problems in wayland that don't exist in xorg. My display needs are rudimentary though, so perhaps I'm not the target audience.

Putting wayland aside... is exactly what I've done. I don't need wayland, so I don't use it. With systemd, not only do many of us have problems but we don't really have a choice. I could run my world on Slackware but then I'd be a SPOF (much like systemd) and that's a bad way to build architecture.

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