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The Provocations of Camille Paglia

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Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#151
post #12

Paglia is a force of nature. It's so exhilarating to come across such a passionate yet clear-sighted academic, battle scarred by exposure of her past misconceptions to the brutality of testing in the real world, and with such a stronger voice for it. I know he's just as much of a divisive figure, but there's a great video of a conversation between Paglia and Jordan Peterson on Youtube.

She’s got the same level of understanding of Foucault and Derrida as Jordan Peterson, ie. ill-informed and superficial. What a shame to call these people clear-sighted when they clearly not only misread Continental philosophers but it becomes apparent that they didn’t even read some of the works they’re criticizing.

Peterson is unbelievably well read, he was on a project for the United Nations and read 300 books on climate science. I'd be very hesitant before accusing him of criticising a book or author without having done his research. I've seen him catch out interviewers a few times where they hadn't read the material in question, but he had and knew it very well.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#152
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Lacan, Foucault and Derrida the pre-eminent influences on modern French academic literary theory? If so, why does she characterise them as minor?

Foucault and Derrida are certainly still read widely (and deservedly so IMO) - more widely than Paglia in Europe at least - describing them as 'minor' is a little silly. You don't have to accept everything they say to see that they have some relevance and value.

On reading up on this, it seems Derrida particularly is quite influential in Continental Philosophy, but in contrast his influence in the Anglophone world is mainly in literary studies. So us Anglophones see, understand and in some cases apply his work in very different ways than is prevalent in France.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will give it a read. Fausto-Sterling seems to be loose with data. In The Five Sexes she cites Money as the source for upwards of 4% of the population being intersexual. Money denied the claim here (last page) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239657377_The_Five_... Later she revised to 1.7% in this paper with some fairly loose definitions of what constitutes "frequency of deviation from the idea female or ma…

Sure, but that's a weird publication of hers to take issue with. For context (from Wikipedia): > In a paper entitled "The Five Sexes", in which, according to her, "I had intended to be provocative, but I had also written with tongue firmly in cheek." Fausto-Sterling laid out a thought experiment considering an alternative model of gender containing five sexes: male, female, merm, ferm, and herm. This thought experime…

The paper "The Five Sexes, Revisited" which you can find at [1], is at best an essay on gender and recent changes in gender-based legislation, at worst badly written political activism, but most certainly not in the slightest a scientific investigation into the biology of reproduction. The latter is what those who criticise modern conceptions of gender have in mind.

[1] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/21a4/4d10b40354a974c8d1d3a9...

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#154
post #105

Paglia is one of those conservatives who is incredibly transphobic and hides it behind the facade of being a “provocateur.” She has defended the completely absurd belief (in this case, proposed by Sheila Jeffries) that cross-gender hormone therapy is a conspiracy by big pharma to get trans people taking hormones for life, among other things: “In it she [Jeffries] argues among other things, that the pharmaceutical ind…

Oh I don't think she hides it, it's readily apparent. I don't really think there's anything wrong with it.

This breaks the site guideline against flamebait. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not do this here?

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#155
post #7
post #5

“These minor French theorists have had a disastrous effect on American education. Lacan encourages pompous bombast and Foucault teaches cheap cynicism, while Derrida’s aggressive method, called deconstruction, systematically trashes high culture by reducing everything to language and then making language destroy itself.” She's right, but it really upsets many academics for someone to say that. Good.

I think her analysis is wrong in that regard. American puritanism is more to blame. French universities do not suffer from the current campus hysteria.

No, but see 1968.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#156
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bone density risk is the only one that has been shown reliably, and even then it’s not enough to warrant not using them. A review of the current literature shows the evidence on brain development impact to be spotty. And here’s the Endocrine Society, saying they’re safe and effective: https://www.endocrine.org/news-room/press-release-archives/2... . The doctors treating trans children keep up to date on this lite…

I have trouble understanding the need to transition as a close friend is just undergoing it. Though I support him/her, I cannot bend my mind around it? What are the perceived benefits? In what way is it that different from using different clothes without the (not sure if small or big) risk of health? Is it not enough to know oneself is X or Y or Z identity-wise? Why is there a need to externalize it and externalize i…

>What are the perceived benefits?

If you’re a man, how do you know you’re a man? Is it because of your genitals? If you looked down at your groin tomorrow morning and saw something different, would you still think of yourself as a man? Or would you suddenly believe otherwise?

>In what way is it that different from using different clothes without the (not sure if small or big) risk of health?

My body is physically uncomfortable for me to exist in for significant periods of time, because it feels wrong. Health risks from just estrogen are increased risk of clotting and breast cancer, but in line with what cis women experience, from what current evidence suggests. Anti-androgens change this a lot, and I don’t really want to get into it because of how varied it is.

>Is it not enough to know oneself is X or Y or Z identity-wise? Why is there a need to externalize it and externalize it in this particular way?

You say later that it’s an insult to be called a girl or woman where you grew up. Imagine if it felt the same way to be called a boy or a man.

>At risk of sounding condescending, one particularly hard thing for me to understand is the need for the rest of her friends to call her appropriately especially since she is just beginning. If someone called me a girl or a woman (common childhood insult where I grew up, and very bad in its own way) I simply could not care less.

To put it simply: you’re not trans. And to ask another question, wouldn’t it bother you if people called you a woman and furthermore treated you like one all the time? (it’s ok if not, but there are some cis people for whom it would. trans people are more like those cis people in those ways.)

>What are the benefits of putting oneself over such a hard (at least it seems socially and medically) ordeal to change how others perceive one?

Because it hurts that much. It just feels that wrong.

>One thing I know is that expecting others to perceive us in a certain way is a losing proposition. We can only change ourselves and it is unreasonable to expect it from everyone else I think.

Sadly, most trans people are well acquainted with this fact. And that is why we end up going through this ordeal. Unreasonable to expect it from other people? No, I wouldn’t say so. Unless you think it’s reasonable for people to expect you to shave your whole body and grow your hair long and start wearing blouses and dresses and skirts, which is the other side of this coin. Unrealistic? Perhaps, and that’s what being an activist in this area is about.

>Once again, sorry for being so extended, I just would like to understand better my friend. I have tried asking her and she seems to have a block around it, saying that I would not understand.

She probably does think you wouldn’t understand. This is something cis people do have a fairly difficult time understanding, and it’s not easy to explain. The best I can explain is if you woke up tomorrow and everyone around you started acting like you were a woman, but nothing had actually changed about you.

The interventions might seem superficial, but it’s not about what they physically do to our bodies. It’s about how those changes feel to us, and how they quiet the discomfort we often feel with our bodies. The identity is already with us, it’s our bodies that we feel the need to change.

Please don’t feel bad about the length. These are difficult things to discuss.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will give it a read. Fausto-Sterling seems to be loose with data. In The Five Sexes she cites Money as the source for upwards of 4% of the population being intersexual. Money denied the claim here (last page) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239657377_The_Five_... Later she revised to 1.7% in this paper with some fairly loose definitions of what constitutes "frequency of deviation from the idea female or ma…

Sure, but that's a weird publication of hers to take issue with. For context (from Wikipedia): > In a paper entitled "The Five Sexes", in which, according to her, "I had intended to be provocative, but I had also written with tongue firmly in cheek." Fausto-Sterling laid out a thought experiment considering an alternative model of gender containing five sexes: male, female, merm, ferm, and herm. This thought experime…

I am addressing a specific claim she made in her paper, quote in full.

"Not surprisingly, it is extremely difficult to estimate the frequency of intersexuality, much less the frequency of each of the three additional sexes: it is not the sort of information one volunteers on a job application. The psychologist John Money of Johns Hopkins University, a specialist in the study of congenital sexual-organ defects, suggests intersexuals may constitute as many as 4 percent of births. As I point out to my students at Brown University, in a student body of about 6,000 that fraction, if correct, implies there may be as many as 240 intersexuals on campus - surely enough to form a minority caucus of some kind."

This section of the essay is not tongue in cheek. She clearly states she's teaching this idea.

This was John Money's response

"To the best of my knowledge there is no publication attributable to me in which I suggest, as Ms. Fausto-Sterling puts it, intersexuals may constitute as many as 4 percent of births. Moreover, it is epidemiologically reckless to conjecture that on the campus of Brown University there are 240 students with a birth defect of the sex organs that would justify their being diagnosed as intersexuals, that is, hermaphrodites"

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that's a weird publication of hers to take issue with. For context (from Wikipedia): > In a paper entitled "The Five Sexes", in which, according to her, "I had intended to be provocative, but I had also written with tongue firmly in cheek." Fausto-Sterling laid out a thought experiment considering an alternative model of gender containing five sexes: male, female, merm, ferm, and herm. This thought experime…

The paper "The Five Sexes, Revisited" which you can find at [1], is at best an essay on gender and recent changes in gender-based legislation, at worst badly written political activism, but most certainly not in the slightest a scientific investigation into the biology of reproduction. The latter is what those who criticise modern conceptions of gender have in mind. [1] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/21a4/4d10b4035…

I referenced the original 1993 essay "The Five Sexes"

You have referenced the 2000 essay, "The Five Sexes, Revisited"

No on claimed it was a scientific investigation, I quoted the full text of the issue I was discussing in a previous comment.

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet somehow she got a PhD in biology from Yale with it, we should probably read it before judging it as "a biology paper" or "not a biology paper". Feel free to list some highly credentialed social scientists you respect, and we can look up their PhD thesis titles. Bottom line is she's highly credentialed with a PhD from Yale, taught at John Hopkins, and is now a "distinguished professor emerita" at UCSC.

we should probably read it I spent about 20 minutes reading parts of it. I'd classify it as "history of science" (a perfectly valid subject). Bottom line is she's highly No. She is in no way "highly credentialised in biology". She has taught at universities but "Women's Studies and the History of Science", and "History of Consciousness [...] and Feminist Studies". (From [1]) The content of her Yale PhD is not in biol…

Link me Haraway's PhD thesis please, I can't find it on scihub.

Original assertion was "highly credentialed biologists", which is different than "highly credentialed in biology", and I would agree with your objection to the later statement, her credentials lie mostly outside biology.

She's highly credentialed by the nature of her PhD from Yale, teaching at Hopkins & UCSC. She's a biologist by training, achieving her PhD in the field.

I asked for a list of social scientists so I could pick one and attack their PhD's or credentials under the same premise you criticized Haraway's, to demonstrate the absurdity of that line of thinking.

Marx's PhD was in philosophy, thesis something about greek philosophy being superior to religion. Spent most of his life as a journalist, so he's not credentialed in the social/political science field he's most notable for.

^^^ makes me sound foolish

Marx's PhD thesis https://archive.org/details/Marx_Karl_-_Doctoral_Thesis_-_Th...

Re: The Provocations of Camille Paglia

#160
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I don't think she hides it, it's readily apparent. I don't really think there's anything wrong with it.

This breaks the site guideline against flamebait. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not do this here?

It seems to me that the post I was replying to was the one flamebaiting.
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