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Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

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Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#151

Post by rootusrootus »

snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

Oregon and Washington are an interesting case. Washington has the most regressive tax system in the US. Oregon is one of the least regressive (yeah, all states are regressive). You would think that wealthy folks would really want to move across the river to escape Oregon's income tax. The problem, though, is that there are just two bridges across the river and they are frequently very busy, and 99% of everything is on the Oregon side. The only way I would move from Portland to the other side is if I am moving all the way to the Seattle area. And that is unlikely, I enjoy Portland too much.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#152

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

bsaul wrote: post #77

"As climate change renders the rest of the planet as hostile to human life as the far north, we too must make the choice between throwing up walls and letting them down" Is this really the general conclusion about the cause why people want to emigrate to "developped" countries (the "we" in the citation) ? climat change ?

Climate change was a significant factor in the Syrian civil war and ongoing migration in Central America. It will only become more significant.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#153

Post by gambiting »

ArnoVW wrote: post #134
gambiting wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was dumb then and still is - UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and has full control of its borders, it can stop anyone from entering as it pleases.

Schengen is about being able to check at your borders. Indeed the UK can still do that, despite being in Europe. However, the UK still has to allow free movement of people. Meaning that it can not stop Europeans from living in the UK. This does not cover working though, and I believe that some European nationalities still have to apply for a work permit. See http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-…

UK can stop anyone who is deemed national security from entering(if the worry is criminals coming here) and free movement applies only if you're employed, a student or can demonstrate that you have enough funds to live here without assistance - without it you can be denied entry. So that should solve the issue of "immigrants coming here for benefits". Really, UK has full power over its borders, it just chose not to exercise if.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#154

Post by gambiting »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #128
gambiting wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was dumb then and still is - UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and has full control of its borders, it can stop anyone from entering as it pleases.

Not really, no. One of the basic tenets of the EU single market is free movement of goods and people. Schengen agreement just removes border controls. UK has the freedom to stop any non-EU citizen from entering as it pleases but so does every other EU country, including the Schengen ones.

See my reply above - even with free movement, there's plenty of cases where you can deny someone entry. Right to free movement is not absolute, and UK is in a fantastic position because it can inspect every single person coming here, unlike for example Germany.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#155

Post by raquo »

snowwrestler wrote: post #120
rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is between MD and WV: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI... . Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%. It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia. On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And…

I don't think I estimated the size of difference at all. Are you suggesting that there is a cutoff below which differences in income don't affect where people decide to live? Is the difference between NY to VA above or below that cutoff? I guess my main point is that we take this freedom for granted in the U.S. and generally folks don't examine it, or consider it to be good, or consider it not bad enough to be worth…

> Are you suggesting that there is a cutoff below which differences in income don't affect where people decide to live?

Of course there is, for plenty of reasons:

- Moving away from friends and family is not free, is risky financially (what if your new job does not pan out), and is often simply not something people want

- Population-wide differences do not guarantee that you personally will gain anything by moving (correlation vs causation)

- Small differences in average incomes are imperceptible to most people, and the quality of average person's financial analysis is lacking. For example, looking at just median income ignores differences in cost of living, quality of government services, lifestyle, and anything occupation-specific.

- There is often more variation in median income within a state (e.g. urban vs rural areas) than across states. Migration from rural to urban areas is a thing.

- etc.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#156

Post by rootusrootus »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #90
rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is between MD and WV: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI... . Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%. It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia. On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And…

Having driven all over both MD and WV, both in cities and country. they are _very_ different. I also think that Belgium and Australia are very different in many ways, but they're also on opposite sides of the earth, whereas, as was pointed out, MD and WV share a border. I've also been all over NY and VA and would say they are more similar compared to the WV vs MD comparison. I'm not sure where you saw that NY is the…

I recently visited WV and I found it an interesting contradiction. A lot of the major infrastructure I saw was in perfectly fine condition, even quite good in many places. But in a lot of the little towns the poverty was palpable. Houses in such an amazing state of disrepair with patches cobbled on top of patches. Then you drive into the hills around the town and sooooo beautiful, big houses on big plots of land, etc. It was gorgeous to drive through and see ... from the inside of our air conditioned van ;-).

I wonder how long until someone builds a high speed commuter line into the heart of WV from DC. There is probably an obvious reason not to, but from my west coast perspective it seems like a good idea.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#157

Post by elliekelly »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145
elliekelly wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never having heard of the hukou system before (wikipedia[1] for anyone in the same boat) I have a hard time understanding the rationale behind it. The only "benefit" I can see is the government having more control over citizen movement and reduced class mobility. I was surprised that people with rural hukou status who had migrated to urban areas were reluctant to change status. I'm curious how it's perceived by the p…

They aren’t reluctant to change their status, they simply can’t. Hukou upgrades only come with marriage or divine central government intervention. Even if your ancestors moved to that city a few generations ago, it won’t change your (or your descendants) hukou; ie no jus soli.

Reading about the program that was my initial guess as to how it would work as well so I was surprised when I got to this section[1] of the wikipedia article that seems to say people are deliberately choosing not to convert from rural to urban. The entire section is sourced to an article[2] titled "China's Hukou Puzzle: Why Don't Rural Migrants Want Urban Hukou*"

Interestingly, the asterisk in the title indicates the research was funded in part by the Chinese government and the user who included the paragraph/source in the article has been banned by Wikipedia[3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Hukou_conversion_...

[2] [PDF] https://www.geog.ucla.edu/sites/default/files/users/fan/a133...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Backendgaming

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#158

Post by drdrey »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #152
bsaul wrote: post #77

"As climate change renders the rest of the planet as hostile to human life as the far north, we too must make the choice between throwing up walls and letting them down" Is this really the general conclusion about the cause why people want to emigrate to "developped" countries (the "we" in the citation) ? climat change ?

Climate change was a significant factor in the Syrian civil war and ongoing migration in Central America. It will only become more significant.

Can you elaborate about the effect of climate change on the Syrian civil war? I am genuinely curious

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#159

Post by [deleted] »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #152
bsaul wrote: post #77

"As climate change renders the rest of the planet as hostile to human life as the far north, we too must make the choice between throwing up walls and letting them down" Is this really the general conclusion about the cause why people want to emigrate to "developped" countries (the "we" in the citation) ? climat change ?

Climate change was a significant factor in the Syrian civil war and ongoing migration in Central America. It will only become more significant.

[deleted]

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#160

Post by seanmcdirmid »

elliekelly wrote: post #157
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren’t reluctant to change their status, they simply can’t. Hukou upgrades only come with marriage or divine central government intervention. Even if your ancestors moved to that city a few generations ago, it won’t change your (or your descendants) hukou; ie no jus soli.

Reading about the program that was my initial guess as to how it would work as well so I was surprised when I got to this section[1] of the wikipedia article that seems to say people are deliberately choosing not to convert from rural to urban. The entire section is sourced to an article[2] titled "China's Hukou Puzzle: Why Don't Rural Migrants Want Urban Hukou*" Interestingly, the asterisk in the title indicates the…

Farmers do lose the rights to their land when they are given urban hukou, but that is part of the divine central government intervention I was referring to. It isn’t usually the case that they are migrants, but their land is being “liberated” by a nearby city and their hukou is being changed to urban so that they no longer have rights to that land anyways (they’ll also be given a small apartment, good luck with your new career as a non-farmer!).

This is a bit different from people moving from one place to another, and involves another nuance between urban and rural hukou within the same area.

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