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France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

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Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#151
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the eyeballs in France view ads if there was chaos outside, and gangs started to cut internet cables? How can eyeballs view ads if they didn't learn from French schools how to go to Google.com and enter search queries?

You missed the question. why is France charging tax to these particular companies? As opposed to all companies? Your answer makes no distinction between them so doesn't actually answer the question.

The reason is because they setup their company legal structures to avoid paying tax, either in France or the US.

Then the US every decade or so gives a money repatriation tax amnesty, effectively providing huge subsidies to US firms dodging all these taxes.

So the government decided to setup a new tax they couldn't. Can't really blame them.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#152
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean that EU citizens should also pay for these services? Or do you expect these companies would continue to operate in the EU with no net profit.

> Does that mean that EU citizens should also pay for these services? Making people pay to access Facebook etc would be the best possible move for society ever.

I would agree. Even something as low as $1 a month or $10 a year would change everything.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#153
post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

"What public resources did Amazon, a US company, use from France?" off the top of my head, I'm sure there are lots more: - a large set of well-off consumers who got there because of free public education, parental supports, et cetera - a safe society so drop shipping is possible - roads & infrastructure for shipping - a justice system that protects Amazon from cheating buyers and sellers - a stable, accepted currency…

>- roads & infrastructure for shipping

Their whole point was that the shipper would pay taxes. Which they do. This applies to most of your points as well, they do get taxed on their warehouses.

What I find most comical about all this is there's already a 20% VAT on everything Amazon sells there. They do pay taxes already, France simply wants more, and this tax is written in a way where it will have a much larger effect on external companies than internal.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#154
post #21

The US administration is presenting the new tax as if it was specifically targeted to US companies because of their origin. Like a tariff. It is not the case at all. Yes the biggest tech giants that do not pay enough tax are mostly from the US (also other companies from other countries are affected too) But it is not because they are from the US that this new tax is created. It is simply because they don't pay enough…

An easy rebuff to the US is simple: if they are American companies, why aren't they paying American taxes on their European business activities?

Maybe because of Ireland?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#155
post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

> I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses.

> The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skills to the worker.

Taxation is used to encourage activities the govt thinks are beneficial to society, and discourage activities that are detrimental. In the US, married couples and those with children get tax breaks. This in spite of the fact that children use government services, accruing greater public costs. However the powers that be find it beneficial to encourage marriage and family building, I suppose because it hypothetically leads to greater stability and encourages more long term participation in the economy (can't quit your job and travel the world if you have kids to support).

So in short yes, the government can and does tax (or exempt from tax) whatever or whoever it wants, within the limits of the country's constitution and their courts' interpretation thereof. There is no requirement that it be directly correlated to a service the government provides.

Leveling the playing field wrt the inherent advantages that a large tech firm benefits from (economies of scale) does seem to be within the reasonable purview of a government which wants to protects its constituents from a tendency of the free market towards monopolization. This tax encourages competition by smaller players, which keeps Amazon honest. It is only not necessary if you trust Amazon to always act in the best interests of the consumer even after stamping out all competition.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#156
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get the list with all ads shown by FB over a month along with who they showed the ad to so the gov can check if those people where in France or not? I think it would be closer to checking which French company bought ads from Facebook and for how much and taxing this.

This is the case no 1 in my post. What you quoted refers to points 2 and 3.

Sorry, I misread your post. I think that the tax don't apply for points 2 & 3, since it only concerns revenus made in France.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#157
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you just ignore to comment on the justification given: that big tech companies engage in blatant tax evasion.

not sure what you mean

Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich. Companies like google can charge their profitable branches in other countries royalties to use Google software or platform moving the profits out of a higher tax country like France into Ireland where there's little to no tax. Even after they patched the Dutch part that allowed even the marginal Irish taxes to be avoided companies can still artificially lower their profit by transferring IP to an Irish company and charging for it's use.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dut...

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#158
post #11
post #8

I'd guess it's even more palatable for France if the US threatens. The combativeness from the US helps foreign leaders to look stronger by creating a nationalist confrontation. Is this tax functionally different from tariff?

Given that French companies are also affected, I fail to see how it could be construed as a tariff. The goal of tariffs is to penalize foreign corporations. That tax is directed at a sector. It will not help the few French actors in that sector become more competitive.

There is only one French company affected as another commenter pointed out.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#159
post #28
post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? All money made on the white market in any country is facilitated by that government, and taxes are paid on all profits…

> Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement?

Ignoring for a moment that this rationale can support any tax policy at all (including 100% tax rates)... This holds for all businesses, not just large tech companies. So why is the tax focused on the latter?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#160
post #138
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. VAT is basically a tax paid by people. Companies don’t really pay VAT, they collect it from the end-customers and pass it to the state. Relying on VAT alone skews the burden of financing the state on the people only, which means no participation from the companies that make money without directly contributing to the country’s expenses they benefit from. It also disproportionately disadvantages companies that also…

...Who do you think ultimately owns these companies? Something besides people?

Not only that, what makes you think corporate tax is paid only by shareholders rather than customers and employees?

A business needs capital to get started -- otherwise the founders wouldn't have to give ownership stakes to capitalists. But the capitalists also have the option to put their money in real estate or bonds or companies that sell to other countries etc. A company has to beat the after-tax ROI of those things in order to raise the money it needs -- so if the taxes go up, the ROI goes down, and they need to squeeze somebody else for the rest of the money, like customers and employees. Which, when it happens to every competing business in your country, they can do since no one can undercut them for the same reason they can't charge any less or pay employees any more and still raise capital -- everyone now has higher capital costs. The capitalists can move their money to an investment in another country more easily than the customers and employees can move around, so who eats the cost?

Ah ha, you say, but what about the companies that are no longer raising capital? Facebook is an established business. They don't need to raise any further capital, so their capital costs are irrelevant and we can tax those foolish capitalists who invested in them without expecting us to raise their taxes just as they were starting to see a return on their high risk investment. Which is true, except that you just convinced investors that it's not worth investing in a prospective competitor and have thereby entrenched Facebook's market position. Oops.

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