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Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

nytimes.com

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Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#151

Post by saalweachter »

Pfhreak wrote: post #56
dymk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can form a union when we need to form a union. There's no point in forming one just in case software engineering no longer becomes a sought-after skilled job.

How shortsighted: "We can form a union when we're in a disadvantageous position." There's plenty of stuff that software engineers could want to improve today around oncall, long hours, IP restrictions, non-competes, pay transparency, parental leave, equity, promotion and career management, educational benefits, age/gender/racial/etc discrimination, health care, etc. When we're in a position of power is a great time f…

Add "more than the OSHA-mandated minimum number of toilets per employee" and "negotiating office floor plan" and you might pick up a few more people.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#152

Post by nerdjon »

lallysingh wrote: post #31
dawhizkid wrote: post #8

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

Why do they leave? Are those reasons addressable by a union?

I know many people leave because of pay reasons, and maybe a union could address that.

But I also find my self largely wanting to leave out of a desire for a new challenge, learn something new. It would be way to easy to stay stagnant at a company and than find yourself forced to deal with new technology in a new role, that for everyone else is old technology (and there is a limit to how much you can realistically do that for side projects). Not that it does not happen anyways.

I don't see any way a Union could (or should) address this.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#153

Post by fredophile »

themacguffinman wrote: post #141
ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

Your points make sense, but it stands in contrast to unions of other industries like voice acting (SAG-AFTRA) where voice actors/actresses can vary a lot in quality/desirability and aren't exactly a commodity. I actually honestly don't know how voice acting unions could be successful.

I could be wrong but my understanding is that SAG sets minimum rates. If you want someone particularly desirable you will probably be paying a premium.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#154

Post by toomuchtodo »

jimcsharp wrote: post #143
lonelappde wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems that a fix for that would be to attach a loan/bond to the training that gets repaid by cash or by credits for working at a member employer.

Unions were started in part as a response to indentured servitude. I'm not sure that would fly, politically.

Purdue does something similar without requiring you work for a specific employer.

https://www.purdue.edu/dfa/types-of-aid/income-share-agreeme... (Income Share Agreements)

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/03/29/708152566/epis... (Episode 903: A New Way To Pay For College)

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#155

Post by bobthepanda »

jimcsharp wrote: post #143
lonelappde wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems that a fix for that would be to attach a loan/bond to the training that gets repaid by cash or by credits for working at a member employer.

Unions were started in part as a response to indentured servitude. I'm not sure that would fly, politically.

The AMA basically does the same thing in certifying schools and capping spots (which allows the schools to charge several arms' and legs' worth of tuition)

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#156

Post by bobthepanda »

ap3 wrote: post #147
ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

Unions & guilds also serve to keep other workers out There are laws that work has to be assigned to union shops, etc

That's not really a function of the union itself, that's a function of an abusable political system.

The other side of the same coin is, for example, ISP local monopoly laws.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#157

Post by asark »

ivl wrote: post #75
eswat wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the specific industry in tech. Do programmers in general tech startups have enough power? I’d say yes too. Do programmers in the gaming industry have enough power? Definitely not.

The gaming industry has an interesting problem: a lot of fresh college grads that want to work on games because they are passionate about games. In that case, I'm unsure of how unionizing would help much, as publishers could simply invest in games from non-union shops, and happily abandon the studios that are unionized.

How'd Hollywood do it? Film industry is full of unions, seems to do OK.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#158

Post by Apocryphon »

enraged_camel wrote: post #142
Apocryphon wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is worth discussing about because it actually criticizes the macroeconomic effects of unions, not just another "well I don't need a union and I don't want to be stuck paying dues" personal complaint. It's an interesting point for union proponents to debate, and perhaps a next-gen tech union should try to address the concerns. Another solution to add to the ones you mentioned can be the promotion of found…

The macroeconomic effects of unions have been overwhelmingly positive. Workers across the entire spectrum of the workforce enjoy and take for granted many labor rights and leisure opportunities today that simply would not have come into existence if it wasn't for heavy activism by unions back in the day. For example, did you know that the 40-hour workweek became standard in 1937 because of a militant labor movement?

By macroeconomic I'm referring to the post upstream about how unions function as cartels and price-fixers. I do not believe that is true, but it seems like an argument that union supporters ought to debunk.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#159

Post by blub »

chongli wrote: post #133
blub wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"professional athletes don't get promoted to management at all" Neither do most employees either, what does that have to do with anything? We can't organize because there's a 5% chance that we're promoted to management?

We can't organize because the people with good leadership qualities and other important organizing skills tend to get promoted to management. It's very difficult for people to spontaneously organize without a leader.

To me it seems that we can't organize because we're selfish and naive. I don't see anyone except you fretting because of our collective organization skills :)

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#160

Post by Pfhreak »

saalweachter wrote: post #151
Pfhreak wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How shortsighted: "We can form a union when we're in a disadvantageous position." There's plenty of stuff that software engineers could want to improve today around oncall, long hours, IP restrictions, non-competes, pay transparency, parental leave, equity, promotion and career management, educational benefits, age/gender/racial/etc discrimination, health care, etc. When we're in a position of power is a great time f…

Add "more than the OSHA-mandated minimum number of toilets per employee" and "negotiating office floor plan" and you might pick up a few more people.

Totally! I see engineers complain all the time about issues like space and basic amenities, and never once hear, "Actually, come to think of it, if we got together and bargained collectively over this issue we could maybe get our company to fix it."

See also: Minimum product security standards and product excellence.

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