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Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

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Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#151

Post by bena »

mikeash wrote: post #126
bena wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drivers are already there though. They've already committed to taking these passengers. Imagine walking up to a taxi and having them say "wait 5 minutes until I can charge you more".

They’re not in any way committed. Imagine waking up to a taxi and offering $10 to go somewhere, and they tell you no thanks but they’ll do it for $15. These drivers are just negotiating the price. The platform tries to block negotiation but it does not quite succeed.

You think that's why taxis maybe have the regulations they do?

You get in a taxi and you know the base rate and the metered rate.

And taxis can't adjust the rate either.

They don't get to argue and neither do you.

The problem I have with this isn't that negotiation is happening, is that it's happening between the wrong parties.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#152

Post by papln »

lr wrote: post #55
Causality1 wrote: post #30

Seems like a small software tweak is all it would take to obliterate this tactic, like updating surge pricing every time a driver logged in.

The whole point of surge pricing is to get more drivers on the street. If they decrease it that quickly, then there is zero incentive for a driver to leave their house and get in their car and get out on the street, because by the time they do that, the prices are back down.

Uber can predict that the drivers are at the airport -- they were logged in when they dropped off a fare, possibly when they were already in line at the cab stand, and also Uber can use a bit of common sense.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#153

Post by eropple »

chrismeller wrote: post #130
eropple wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By leveraging the supply controls, which are explicitly theirs to use to communicate willingness to take on work , in a two-sided market where you're not allowed to directly set prices? Please substantiate how that is fraudulent. If Lyft and Uber allowed direct pricing, this wouldn't happen. Drivers would set the price they're willing to work for. Instead, drivers--who, once more for emphasis, are supposed to use pri…

So go drive a cab instead. I hear that’s a great life. They agreed to drive for a service for x. They can’t then complain that they are making x or manipulate the system to earn more than x.

No, they did not agree to "drive for a service for X". They entertain offers to drive at a given rate. They can choose to take those offers or not. That's the whole point of the on-demand, contractor-but-not-really relationship (see also the way that Lyft and Uber punish drivers to don't take absolutely every ride that pops up on the app) that underpins Lyft and Uber's business model.

They're refusing to entertain offers below a certain rate. That drops supply, which requires price increases to satisfy demand on the other side. The market, literally, is working as intended.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#154

Post by papln »

shereadsthenews wrote: post #37
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #13

Seems to me that if they're contractors they should have the ability to set their own rates. What's unfortunate is that they have to trick the app.

If Uber was a true platform with sellers able to ask for a price the wouldn't need this indirect means of influencing it.

That's not true. The cabbies would still need a way to pressure each other to not accept lower fares.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#155

Post by uxp100 »

lexs wrote: post #18
wlesieutre wrote: post #12

News flash: if you go out of your way to classify your entire workforce as contractors, you don't get to decide when they work or not. It turns out this has consequences on both sides. If Lyft wants to decide when their drivers are working, there's a process for this: 1) Hire employees 2) Give them a schedule 3) Pay them hourly plus mileage

And suddenly Uber/Lyft are like any other Taxi company just with a massive valuation.

I think they'd retain some of that valuation. Unlike traditional cabs, they show up (I've been stranded by more cabs called by phone then I've taken, not hyperbole). But the value of some unified dispatcher framework, with penalties for abandoning customers probably isn't in the tens of billions. Maybe in the hundreds of millions? Either self driving cars change everything, quite quickly, or some people are going to lose a lot of money.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#156

Post by Shivetya »

I have no issue with them not being available and having rates go up. that is what they system should do. I know uber/lyft drivers that turn off the app after drops off in areas they like being so that they don't get prompted to take a nearby fare.

I do find it annoying that these drivers are upset at the fees. Look, before then all you could do is work for a taxi service and they make uber and lyft look like saints for the most part. you are free to work for whomever you want and you got into the deal knowing what it was.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#157

Post by umeshunni »

giaour wrote: post #8

As much as I would be displeased if my fare were manipulated, I can only blame Uber and Lyft for this. They created an incentive for drivers to act as a unit, and groups of drivers are figuring it out. Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis

> Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis

Did I miss a sarcasm tag?

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#158

Post by eropple »

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #138
eropple wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes an inelastic demand curve. DCA has other options, such as taxis. (edited s/elastic/inelastic - I dun goofed. Thanks, Erik!)

The existence of other options implies a more elastic supply curve, but implies nothing about demand. That passengers suffer from a price surge does not assume an inelastic demand, or even a downward-sloping one. If you pay a higher price, you're suffering more, even if somehow it leads you to buy more of that thing.

Eh--"suffering" seems a bit dramatic; as economic transactions go, the up-front price quote by Lyft and Uber makes it pretty transparent and the options available to depart DCA put an upper bound on costs. But I was more referring to how Lyft and Uber make more money off of shorter, cheaper rides. They do make more from longer rides, because of percentages, but my understanding is that volume makes them much more money and that higher prices do depress volume.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#159

Post by thebradbain »

mikeryan wrote: post #145
radcon wrote: post #59

This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument. Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The app could be their version of a union.

Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. This isn't how it works? Rates of pay are mutually agreed upon between an employer and employee regardless of classification.

I think the pro-labor argument is Uber doesn’t even consider / allow negotiating their standard contract for rate-setting.

IIRC Microsoft got in trouble in the early 2000s for doing something similar in having separate standardized pay-scales for contractors depending on how long they’ve contracted with Microsoft, and no option to negotiate, and the labor board argued that Microsoft was trying to shoehorn contractor-employment law into employee roles without the legal protections and tax burdens of employment rights

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#160

Post by mikeash »

bena wrote: post #151
mikeash wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not in any way committed. Imagine waking up to a taxi and offering $10 to go somewhere, and they tell you no thanks but they’ll do it for $15. These drivers are just negotiating the price. The platform tries to block negotiation but it does not quite succeed.

You think that's why taxis maybe have the regulations they do? You get in a taxi and you know the base rate and the metered rate. And taxis can't adjust the rate either. They don't get to argue and neither do you. The problem I have with this isn't that negotiation is happening, is that it's happening between the wrong parties.

Taxi prices are regulated because negotiation was too difficult in the pre-smartphone era and taxi drivers would take advantage of information asymmetry to screw people. None of that applies here.

The negotiation is happening between the drivers and passengers, which is how it should be. Uber and Lyft are acting as intermediaries, and are trying and failing to stop this negotiation.

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