Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#151

Post by scarface74 » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

trickstra wrote: post #6

spyspy wrote: post #3

> So, your code isn’t working, what do you do? Stare blankly at the monitor? This always gets me. When the interviewer asks a question, the correct answer is literally never, “let me think about it quietly for a moment”. This is one of the disconnects between interview programming and real programming people get frustrated over.

It only shows this interviewer doesn't really know much about programmers' daily job and has never been programming themselves. Also this: "It’s funny how many people can’t edit text on any machine but their own." - I bought a notebook without properly checking the keyboard and even now after 3 years it still bugs me everytime I type. Nobody can understand how these things can really limit focus. If I got a different…

I’m glad one of my interviewers didn’t feel that way. I was about to start a pair programming session and they had an ergonomic split keyboard for me to use. I just asked for a regular keyboard, I purposefully didn’t explain why just to see what they would say. They had no problem finding me one.

After they gave me the keyboard, I told them that I can only type with one hand for physical reasons.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#152

Post by sureaboutthis » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

inferiorhuman wrote: post #114

skrebbel wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. It'll go like this: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Ask me when you're ready to save and I'll teach you the magic incantation. Applicant: types away If you're not able to code in what's essentially just a test box then that's a useful thin…

just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Yeah maybe. The default vi config that comes with FreeBSD will get out of insert mode if you use the arrow keys to go beyond the end of the line (and maybe some other situations I've forgotten). Editors are extremely personal, there's a pretty good reason that vi vs emacs is one of the eternal f…

> The default vi config that comes with FreeBSD will get out of insert mode if you use the arrow keys to go beyond the end of the line

No it doesn't.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#153

Post by GoToRO » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

GoToRO wrote: post #150

Summary: if you don't know little thing X for sure you can't do Y! now and forever! because Y can no longer be learned! "you can’t program anymore" and forever? "can’t edit text on any machine" and forever? "can’t figure out the magic command keys to indent code" and forever? He sees the developer as having static knowledge that somehow, in the very moment of the interview, becomes frozen in time and nothing can be d…

Oh, after they complain about everything that is not really important, they spend 2 weeks to create a user/pass for you and months to learn the project because the senior left.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#154

Post by Jemm » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:27 PM UTC

"if you haven’t been programming for a while, you can’t program anymore."

I do not agree with this at all. For a person who has a proper understanding of how a computers works from the basics, getting up to speed on any language and paradigm might take a short time but telling a person they cannot program anymore is complete BS.

Ok, object oriented environments are now more common but so what; they were invented 50 years ago and most of us have had some exposure to them at least on a general level.

So telling us we can't program anymore because we cannot pick up your laptop and your editor and toss out a program in five minutes is not a test of the person, but more designed to make the tester feel superior.

I am happy that I do not have to interview with Josh Carter.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#155

Post by rayraegah » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

The article was okay to read but calling people out for not being able to use an editor you know how to use is low.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#156

Post by toyg » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

ericol wrote: post #147

skrebbel wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. It'll go like this: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Ask me when you're ready to save and I'll teach you the magic incantation. Applicant: types away If you're not able to code in what's essentially just a test box then that's a useful thin…

> just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Yeah, no. Let me call bullshit on you calling bullshit. I've been working as a mediocre programmer at the same company for the last 10 years. when I landed this job, I had never ever even heard of vi. I was "gently" introduced to it by my boss, and eventually got to kind of get used to a basic…

I had your same problem for years (I use vi extremely sparingly) and the answer is “a” - which means “append”: it will go to the end of the line and leave you in insert mode after the last character.

Found out when I was looking for something else, and improved my quality of life quite a bit. (I still hate distributions where arrow keys in insert mode don’t work like any reasonable human would expect, but they are thankfully getting thinner on the ground).

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#157

Post by mooreds » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

clarry wrote: post #123

mooreds wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. The point of an interview isn't for an applicant just to solve the problem, it's to prove they can solve the problem. I think saying "let me think about it for a moment" is perfectly acceptable. But going quiet without guiding the interviewer is not communicating what your plan is. Not saying interviewing isn't broken in a myriad of ways, but asking a candidate to talk through their process to illuminate it isn'…

> The point of an interview isn't for an applicant just to solve the problem, it's to prove they can solve the problem. Well if you solve it, then you've proved that you can solve it, right? So let people solve it the way they solve it when they're working for real. If that means sitting quietly and focusing on their screen, so be it. Alternatively, the point of an interview is for the applicant to pretend they're br…

> Well if you solve it, then you've proved that you can solve it, right?

Which gives you more data on how someone works and thinks?

1. Person silently sits for 15 minutes and then codes up a solution that meets the test criteria in another 15 minutes, typing quickly.

2. Person talks about the issues, tradeoffs and experiences while coding. They ask questions and engage in some discussion around the problem set. They end up with a partial solution after 30 minutes.

Of course those are hypothetical extremes, but it is clear to me which scenario gives the interviewer more information.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#158

Post by recursivecaveat » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

ericol wrote: post #147

skrebbel wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. It'll go like this: Interviewer: here, a laptop with vi Applicant: I've never used vi Interviewer: just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Ask me when you're ready to save and I'll teach you the magic incantation. Applicant: types away If you're not able to code in what's essentially just a test box then that's a useful thin…

> just hit "i" to be dropped into insert mode, then just navigate with the arrows and use backspace like in any other editor. Yeah, no. Let me call bullshit on you calling bullshit. I've been working as a mediocre programmer at the same company for the last 10 years. when I landed this job, I had never ever even heard of vi. I was "gently" introduced to it by my boss, and eventually got to kind of get used to a basic…

In case you need to use more vim in your life: that's not actually a conf issue, it's just how the 'i'-key behaves. You can use 'a' to open insert mode after the current character, or to more directly get the effect you want, 'o' to create a new line after the current and put yourself in insert mode.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#159

Post by trickstra » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #98

twelve40 wrote: post #39

> He reasoned through the problem, wrote the code, it ran perfectly the first time. I hired him. I get the overall sentiment, but come on, "I hired him" sounds like self-absorbed anecdata - so this post is about how to quickly appeal to some manager dude on the interwebs? A more useful metric would be, did this hire survive the first two years, and what do the people around him have to say about his performance. > It…

> how to quickly appeal to some manager dude That is a great description of what an interview actually is. While your larger point is valid, you do have to get the job in the first place to have the opportunity to prove they were right to hire you. So you need to appeal to whomever you are talking to.

But the fact that it is being like that is the problem. It shouldn't be about who performs the most elaborate mating dance. This is a job and the performance of the project will be measurable and might have far-reaching consequences even for many people outside the company. None of the victims of the Equfax hack cares that the people on the job impressed their managers.

Re: Dear Programming Job Applicants (2010)

#160

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Sat, May 18, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

trickstra wrote: post #109

eitland wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But having 7 years of coding practice in several companies kinda does, because why else would those companies have you for so long? Several jobs in 7 years might very well imply several companies gave that person a chance and then gave up. I often got questions about that years ago, and it was completely reasonable, at one point I'd worked in 4 different positions in 5 years. (There were good reasons for it and I h…

> gave that person a chance and then gave up. Nobody "gives a chance" for a year. Either the problems were discovered during the probation period, or they were not as bad. Definitely not so bad that you'd have any chance discovering it during the interview. Besides, this high fluctuation is quite normal in IT.

You'd be surprised. A common scenario is that manager A hires a bad employee but doesn't want to admit their mistake. Then they move on to another position and the new manager B has to go through the lengthy PIP and termination process.