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500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

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Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#151

Post by zahllos »

sanderjd wrote: post #110
bigred100 wrote: post #105

Anyone else feel like language learning is overrated? (Yes I’m an uncultured provincial American and I’m sorry). Unless you frequently travel somewhere where another language is spoken, have family that speaks another language, or want to travel places like that, it’s hard for me to see why learning more about your own language, math or something, socializing, learning about how your government and society work, or s…

Upvoted because I want to see replies to this question. My intuition is that language learning has other positive effects than just the practical one of allowing you to converse with other people in that language. For instance you say that math would be more rewarding in the long run. But why? Most people really don't have a practical need for math past arithmetic. But your intuition is that it is nonetheless rewardi…

I'll reply. Firstly to the parent poster:

I'm a native English speaker who learned French to a conversational level (~B2 in the European Language Framework) before I left my home country. That language skill helped me get a job where I am now. The country I am in is multilingual, so the ability to learn languages and a willingness to make an effort with other languages is very important.

I can however understand this attitude, especially if you don't travel enough to warrant it and don't really need to use it. I feel sad typing this, because I am personally very interested in languages, but language skills in my home country aren't particularly valuable or desired and English dominates. If you decide to dedicate that time to learning a different skill, well I can't really fault that.

However I'd make some observations. Firstly, knowing some words even if you travel infrequently can be helpful. Secondly, according to wikipedia, 12% of the US speak Spanish, 29% in California. That's not nothing.

As to the benefits, I personally think there are numerous. People say you "understand the culture" or something but I'm not sure you get this unless you immerse in a native-speaking country. What you get on a purely linguistic level is an understanding of grammar, an understanding of some word roots (especially if you learn French, which had a significant influence on English as a result of the Normal invasion, or Latin. Similar benefits probably exist if you learn other romance languages or maybe German/Dutch), and an understanding of how that language influences how the speakers approach the world. Also, if you ever want to help a non-native speaker improve their English, it very much helps to appreciate the struggles they're going through.

Since this is HN, I don't think my language skills have improved my programming at all. I don't like duolingo.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#152

Post by ngngngng »

Slightly off topic, but if you are multilingual, teach your kids. My parents are fluent in Japanese, Spanish, Kekchi, ASL, and English between the two of them. But they didn't bother to teach me or my siblings, so we only speak American English.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#153

Post by laGrenouille »

usaar333 wrote: post #148
gibba999 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the article to be BS. My experience: 1) Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language. You just reinforce each others' bad accents, grammar mistakes, etc. 2) Duolingo is okay for some things, but not for others. But discounting all apps after having tried one or two, though, is a lot like the famous Gates quote: "640k should be enough for anybody" (which he cla…

> Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language. Well, sure a private tutor is better, but that's a lot more expensive. Without a teacher of some sort that can provide feedback, I have no idea how I could have learned elementary Mandarin (that is produce and listen to sounds radically different from my native English). From what I've seen the ability for computers to g…

>> Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language. > Well, sure a private tutor is better, but that's a lot more expensive.

In my experience, a private tutor really is not any more expensive than an classroom environment when you factor in the reduced number of hours needed. I have been taking language lessons online with 1-on-1 tutors (via Skype) through italki. You can easily find good native speakers with teaching qualifications for under $15 / hour. I find that I get more out of a dedicated hour with a tutor than half-day course in a classroom.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#154

Post by rjf72 »

bigred100 wrote: post #105

Anyone else feel like language learning is overrated? (Yes I’m an uncultured provincial American and I’m sorry). Unless you frequently travel somewhere where another language is spoken, have family that speaks another language, or want to travel places like that, it’s hard for me to see why learning more about your own language, math or something, socializing, learning about how your government and society work, or s…

There are numerous studies you can find showing how learning a new language helps the brain in various quantifiable ways such as increases in white and gray brain matter. But these can be discovered by a simple search, so let's consider other things. To start with only 372 million people speak English natively, with 611 million adopting it as a workable second language. A total of 983 million. Putting these numbers into context, the total worldwide number of English speakers is less than the population of China. The world today has around 7.7 billion people - 87.2% of them do not speak English.

This has implications beyond just communications. Many of us tend to think about things on a global scale. But when you learn another language, especially from a different language group such as Chinese/Arabic/Russian/etc, you'll find that our views and values tend to be very different than people in other nations. I mean I think we all intuitively realize this, but there's a difference between realizing something and actually seeing and experiencing it - such as by participating in discussion sites in a different language. How can we speak of ideas on a global scale with so generally little knowledge of the rest of the world? Suffice to say that our stereotypes of other nations (from which one might hope to at least glean some insight) tend to be no more accurate or insightful than foreign stereotypes of Americans!

The web is also rapidly reflecting this difference in language. The internet was 'born and raised' English, but non-English usage on the web (which currently makes up about 45% of the internet) has been growing far faster than English usage. Probably to be expected as English is likely near saturation, but it doesn't change the point that we're going to be trending downward for the foreseeable future on the internet. And perhaps far down if English's role as the 'global language' does not persist. By speaking only English you restrict yourself not only to a small slice of the real world, but what will also be an ever shrinking slice of the digital world.

And finally there are the typical arguments. Many other nations have incredibly rich cultures and histories. And these can all be unlocked with little more than the learning of a language. I'm not even really talking about books or arts from hundreds of years ago. This change and cultural difference is ongoing - movies, games, television, etc somehow have such a sharply different feel between nations. In the process of seeing these differences, you also simultaneously learn more about yourself and how your own experience has shaped who you are - which can also help you try to see things more impartially.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#155

Post by faitswulff »

gibba999 wrote: post #140
bit_logic wrote: post #119

Learning a language requires immersion. That's why classes with other students are more effective than flashcards. VR has potential to really make a difference here. Imagine you load a VR level. It's a busy outdoor market in Taipei. In your inventory you have some cash. NPCs with AI and chat logic are around you interacting. Your goal is to buy some bread and get to the subway. You see a vendor with some bread, but d…

I found the article to be BS. My experience: 1) Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language. You just reinforce each others' bad accents, grammar mistakes, etc. 2) Duolingo is okay for some things, but not for others. But discounting all apps after having tried one or two, though, is a lot like the famous Gates quote: "640k should be enough for anybody" (which he cla…

I think the problem with Pimsleur is that the number of topics that you could become "fluent" in explodes once you get past a certain level of proficiency. I doubt that it could take you to fluency except in a very narrow range of topics due to the degree of repetition required.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#156

Post by drag00n »

I've been learning French and German throughout the last years, and I tried different setups. I came to the conclusion that apps like duolingo lack a consistent (or any) narrative, following a set of characters that interact with each other and the world. A good example for German is Deutsche Welle: https://learngerman.dw.com/en/overview

I've recently written more on the topic in my post on linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-duolingo-bad-way-learn-la...

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#157

Post by MobileVet »

I used to think Duolingo was awesome, but after using Mango Languages, I changed my mind.

Duolingo was fun for learning words and ‘playing games’ but that didn’t hold my attention for very long... despite loving language learnings.

Mango languages on the other hand taught me to speak and kept me rolling for over 6 months and counting! It focuses on phrases and does a great job building up from small to larger... and sneaking in grammar lessons. I absolutely love it and am so impressed

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#158

Post by Redoubts »

akg_67 wrote: post #90
LanceH wrote: post #24

I'm using Duolingo to learn my 4th language. My previously recent language was studied in the early 90's, for perspective. Currently, I'm taking on Japanese. Becoming fluent with this app (or any other single app) is going to be just impossible. In isolation it will be a haphazard collection of phrases picked up at a glacial pace. The pluses to Duo are huge, though. What some see as repetition to gain master on a min…

Duolingo is not good for learning East Asian languages. For Japanese, it is particularly bad. Try LingoDeer instead.

Why?

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#159

Post by thaumasiotes »

usaar333 wrote: post #148
gibba999 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the article to be BS. My experience: 1) Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language. You just reinforce each others' bad accents, grammar mistakes, etc. 2) Duolingo is okay for some things, but not for others. But discounting all apps after having tried one or two, though, is a lot like the famous Gates quote: "640k should be enough for anybody" (which he cla…

> Classes with other students are just about the least effective way to learn a foreign language. Well, sure a private tutor is better, but that's a lot more expensive. Without a teacher of some sort that can provide feedback, I have no idea how I could have learned elementary Mandarin (that is produce and listen to sounds radically different from my native English). From what I've seen the ability for computers to g…

> Without a teacher of some sort that can provide feedback, I have no idea how I could have learned elementary Mandarin

One of the points made in The Language Instinct is that children pick up their languages without using any explicit feedback. That is, people in the child's life who can already speak are liable to ignore errors in the child's speech, and when they do point out errors, the child will essentially always ignore the feedback.

But I wouldn't say children don't get feedback at all. They get a lot of important feedback, such as whether the thing they wanted to happen when they spoke did happen, or whether the person they were talking to appeared to understand them. However, this kind of feedback is generally not the kind provided by a "teacher"; everyone automatically provides it.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#160

Post by kostarelo »

bit_logic wrote: post #119

Learning a language requires immersion. That's why classes with other students are more effective than flashcards. VR has potential to really make a difference here. Imagine you load a VR level. It's a busy outdoor market in Taipei. In your inventory you have some cash. NPCs with AI and chat logic are around you interacting. Your goal is to buy some bread and get to the subway. You see a vendor with some bread, but d…

No need for VR.

busuu[1] have setup a network where users can send exercises to other members (native speakers of the language you are trying to speak) and they will correct and rate them. The network is very active, as soon as I submit my exercise, a couple of minutes later someone will have corrected it. (Premium plan though, I made a 3 months plan, hopefully it will be enough to get me on track).

I would suggest everyone to give busuu a try.

[1]: https://busuu.com [2]: https://imgur.com/a/3PrxDBH

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