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Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

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Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#151

Post by WalterBright »

ranie93 wrote: post #139
pathseeker wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eliminating people at the higher income brackets until the average has lowered enough that you have a large middle class isn't something to be proud of either.

Is it? In the scenario you say we shouldn't be necessarily proud of more people would be economically well-off (e.g. less people choosing between food and rent). Are you sure that wouldn't be something to be proud of?

The graph has nothing to say about the relative prevalence of people choosing between food and rent.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#152

Post by thatfrenchguy »

rayiner wrote: post #141
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistically, most people won't need to use the safety net As a person, you'll around 100% likely to the doctor. In any Western Europe country, you don't have to think about it. In the US, you either think about it because of your copay or your don't go because you don't have money.

Most Americans have insurance through their employer, or under Medicare/Medicaid. (And that was true before ACA.) Copays are small ($20-30 typically) and similar to what they are in say Sweden or Finland: https://megaphoneoz.com/why-sweden-gets-away-with-health-co-... .

I make a good six figures. I have a $20 copay. The copay in France is usually €1. I have delayed going to the doctor in the US because "do I really want to spend 20 bucks on this ?" and ended up going a week after while in a worse state. Most people I know here are like this.

Also, 12.4% of all Americans are uninsured and 28% are underinsured: http://fortune.com/2019/02/07/americans-health-care-underins... . Don't pretend the current situation in the US is anywhere near healthy.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#153

Post by ranie93 »

WalterBright wrote: post #151
ranie93 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? In the scenario you say we shouldn't be necessarily proud of more people would be economically well-off (e.g. less people choosing between food and rent). Are you sure that wouldn't be something to be proud of?

The graph has nothing to say about the relative prevalence of people choosing between food and rent.

I have not read the report entirely so I can't say if it does, but I don't know for a fact either which is why I left it as a parenthetical. I am fine with my comment being interpreted without the parenthetical.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#154

Post by SilasX »

rayiner wrote: post #141
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistically, most people won't need to use the safety net As a person, you'll around 100% likely to the doctor. In any Western Europe country, you don't have to think about it. In the US, you either think about it because of your copay or your don't go because you don't have money.

Most Americans have insurance through their employer, or under Medicare/Medicaid. (And that was true before ACA.) Copays are small ($20-30 typically) and similar to what they are in say Sweden or Finland: https://megaphoneoz.com/why-sweden-gets-away-with-health-co-... .

Wait, what?

runako: If you make $23k, you don't have a job that gives you health insurance.

rayiner: None of this is a big deal, because most Americans have health insurance through their employer.

Er, what? Yeah, most do, I guess ... the part making much more than $23k.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#155

Post by cannonedhamster »

rayiner wrote: post #147
ixtli wrote: post #4

My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here. This causes them to act against their own best interests. (This was observed by Engels long ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness )

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Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#156

Post by ranie93 »

WalterBright wrote: post #150
ranie93 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also smaller, that can't be forgotten. Reading this through the lens of income inequality; I don't think having a smaller, yet richer middle class, is necessarily something to be proud of.

According to how the graph was constructed, you can't actually infer that the middle class in the US is smaller, because it defines the middle class as wealthier to begin with.

It seems to me the definition is fair, they define it as 75% to 200% of the median income in the respective country.

I don't think this comparison (to ones own countries' median income, PPP-adjusted) can be escaped since "middle-class" is being interpreted as intra-country. This is what I would expect since when I think myself if I qualify as middle-class, I don't compare myself to the Yemenis, I compare myself to other Americans.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#157

Post by davidw »

umvi wrote: post #126
davidw wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy's health care is pretty good actually. Lived there for 15 years, on and off. My son was born there. My father in law survived a bad heart attack there. Yes, there are areas in the south where it's not so good, but any reasonably large country probably has some areas where things don't work as well. People live long, healthy, happy productive lives there.

> Yes, there are areas in the south where it's not so good I was in Naples at the time and was a little disturbed by how lax the doctors (well, really everyone) seemed. I guess I shouldn't judge Italy's government/healthcare based on my experience in Naples, I have heard that northern Italy is on the ball for the most part.

Naples is a world unto itself. Much has been written on the subject, but yeah, it's kind of a mess. In some ways it's sort of the distilled essence of some of the worst - and best - of Italy.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#158

Post by rayiner »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #152
rayiner wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Americans have insurance through their employer, or under Medicare/Medicaid. (And that was true before ACA.) Copays are small ($20-30 typically) and similar to what they are in say Sweden or Finland: https://megaphoneoz.com/why-sweden-gets-away-with-health-co-... .

I make a good six figures. I have a $20 copay. The copay in France is usually €1. I have delayed going to the doctor in the US because "do I really want to spend 20 bucks on this ?" and ended up going a week after while in a worse state. Most people I know here are like this. Also, 12.4% of all Americans are uninsured and 28% are underinsured: http://fortune.com/2019/02/07/americans-health-care-underins... . Don't pr…

The whole point of copays is to dissuade you from using services unnecessarily, which is why many countries, even ones with socialized medicine, have copays or similar out-of-pocket charges (Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, Finland, etc.). In the typical case where you're not sick, it works out.

As to your point about the uninsured--I'm not debating the merits of various healthcare systems, I'm trying to contextualize the experience of the typical American. The typical American has health insurance (and is not underinsured), pays $25 or so for their annual checkup, and lives in a house two and a half times bigger than their counterpart in the U.K. (That American is also a job loss + health scare away from significant financial problems. Both things are true.)

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#159

Post by crushcrashcrush »

victoriasun wrote: post #33
crushcrashcrush wrote: post #8

I have a real, honest to goodness question. I live in the Bay Area. I make $200,000 a year. I just had a mini-exit where I netted about $300K after taxes. I still rent for $2700/month. I don't want to buy an overpriced home in the bay in the suburbs (I wish we had for-sale condos like Toronto everywhere... still don't know why) I do well. I'm 32. I'm on an upwards path. But I don't feel upper class. I feel middle cla…

I would fathom a guess that you feel middle class for 2 reasons: 1. Your life doesn't fit in line with your expectations of upper class. 2. 200k a year in the Bay Area is, in its weird, sad way, middle class. 3. The feeling of "killing it" is pretty difficult to obtain when you are an ambitious person. But you are doing well. You are probably doing better off than most people, even in the Bay Area. I hope that you ca…

This was wonderful. Thank you.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#160

Post by rayiner »

SilasX wrote: post #154
rayiner wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Americans have insurance through their employer, or under Medicare/Medicaid. (And that was true before ACA.) Copays are small ($20-30 typically) and similar to what they are in say Sweden or Finland: https://megaphoneoz.com/why-sweden-gets-away-with-health-co-... .

Wait, what? runako: If you make $23k, you don't have a job that gives you health insurance. rayiner: None of this is a big deal, because most Americans have health insurance through their employer. Er, what? Yeah, most do, I guess ... the part making much more than $23k.

Even among households making less than $25,000 per year, the large majority (85%) of people have health insurance. Within that group, more people have employer-provided health insurance than lack coverage: https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/hi-01/20.... (See row 200.)

Even among the groups most likely to lack health insurance (households of unrelated individuals making less than $25,000), uninsured + direct purchase (having to buy your own health insurance) only accounts for 1/3 of people in that segment. (Row 210.)

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