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European Parliament approves copyright reform

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Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#151

Post by yulaow »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #131
yulaow wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it depends on which is your view about "what is the most democratic vote system". For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about. From my point of view the Brexit vote is totally not-democratic because it put an absurdly complex decision on a big part of the population which has not even remotely th…

> For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about. Isn't that not just a technocracy? I actually think a system like that would make a lot of sense, but I still believe the population should have the power to veto a law that they don't want. As for the brexit vote being undemocratic, I see your point, but…

> Isn't that not just a technocracy? I actually think a system like that would make a lot of sense, but I still believe the population should have the power to veto a law that they don't want.

I think that too, IF they take the time to become experts in the matter of the law they don't want.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#152

Post by isostatic »

sprash wrote: post #124
isostatic wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that the backroom deal of two states (California and New York) now has influence over states that are totally unrelated like e.g. Wyoming. This turns the US into a tyranny where might is right. Why should Californians have a say about how the internet should work in Wyoming? (The reality of course is that the US has had not only a say, but often the only say in how the internet should work in the…

I never said that the US is a great example for a functioning democracy. The best example for democracy is Switzerland. It also has the highest standard of living in the world as a result.

> It also has the highest standard of living in the world as a result.

That's a non sequitur. I believe that these copyright changes will apply in Switzerland too due to international agreements.

There are many types of democracy, each have pros and cons.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#153

Post by msquog »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #104
isostatic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU Parliament, who we vote for every 5 years (and have elections coming up), vote for a law. You don't like said law, therefore it's undemocratic? The way the parliament is elected is quite fair - it gives a little more power to people in smaller countries, but that's not unusual (UK westminster constituencies vary from 22k to 120k. U.S. congress areas are more even, ranging from 500k to 1 million). There's an ar…

To make my point a bit clearer: I am almost convinced now that "representative democracy" shouldn't count as a "democracy" just because the population can vote who they get ####ed by. It only works as long as the representatives see it as their duty to represent the will of the voters accurately, which I'm starting to believe is an antithesis to human behavior, and thus will never be the norm. I'm not saying that Eur…

> Take for an example the UK referendum to leave the EU. Even though it's overall a complete shitshow, and all sides usually agree on that, nobody can really claim that it wasn't a democratic decision. Was it a smart one? Who knows, I doubt it. But it was democratic, and that's more than I can say about this mess

You are oversimplifying this - that vote was between a definite (the status quo) and a vague future direction (insert personal fantasy about what "leave" actually meant)

Is it any more democratic to make people choose between "definitive choice x" and "the mystery box", than it is to make people vote for a vague bag of promises (a representative) as they already do?

If not, then what you're probably after is a democratic choice between two or more defined options. But who chooses which options are presented to people? Who oversees the ensuing floods of propaganda?

A direct democracy moves even more power to the propaganda machine, not the people.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#154

Post by sisu2019 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #10
trkh0 wrote: post #6

Wonder how everyone here who keep praising and extolling everything the EU does has to say about this. Edit: being downvoted to oblivion suggests either that they are in denial or there are many paid shills around or both, either way I rest my case.

Well, my position has been that platforms have been built on the knowledge that they're heavily used for content theft but that they're shielded from liability for it unfairly. (See Section 230 here in the US). And I think the tech industry is a pox on our news media and the money they need to do real investigative work. (See Apple taking like a solid 50% revenue on their news service.) I'm reasonably happy the EU is…

> I'm reasonably happy the EU is interested in shifting profits back away from big tech

This is not going to happen. Regulations are very likely to favor incumbents as their high rate of profit can more easily accommodate them. Incidentally this is the reason why sometimes big companies are in favor of laws that seem to be bad for them: they are worse for the competition.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#155

Post by swebs »

cbg0 wrote: post #19
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #16

Am I the only one who kinda feels like I'm not living in a democratic system anymore? Not saying this is the first such thing that happens, but it's probably the one that will make me stop using the word to refer to the society I live in.

Which part of this was not democratic?

The part where the parliament voted against the wishes of the majority.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#156

Post by icebraining »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #85
lgrebe wrote: post #3

„German newspaper FAZ reports its investigation found strong indications that Germany traded its support for the #copyright deal for French concessions on Russian gas #northstream2„ https://edition.faz.net/faz-edition/wirtschaft/2019-03-26/f3... Via https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1110278976654794753?s=20

Maybe someone can explain to me why the hell France (or the rest of the EU) even cares about where Germany gets their gas from in the first place?

Who says they do? What matters is that their vote is power they can leverage to push the stuff they do care about.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#157

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

yulaow wrote: post #110
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make my point a bit clearer: I am almost convinced now that "representative democracy" shouldn't count as a "democracy" just because the population can vote who they get ####ed by. It only works as long as the representatives see it as their duty to represent the will of the voters accurately, which I'm starting to believe is an antithesis to human behavior, and thus will never be the norm. I'm not saying that Eur…

Well it depends on which is your view about "what is the most democratic vote system". For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about. From my point of view the Brexit vote is totally not-democratic because it put an absurdly complex decision on a big part of the population which has not even remotely th…

> For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about.

And who decides who is an expert on what?

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#158

Post by JumpCrisscross »

paganel wrote: post #130

> France’s current batch of national politicians have consistently advocated for the worst parts of the Directive, and the Macron administration may seek to grab an early win for the country’s media establishment. Macron is a crook. If any other president from any other civilized country would have sent the military to guard against its citizens' street protests [1] then that president would have been (rightly) calle…

> If any other president from any other civilized country would have sent the military to guard against its citizens' street protests [1] then that president would have been (rightly) called out the worst names

Burning cars and breaking windows isn’t peaceful protest. If that happened in New York and the mayor and governor didn’t deploy armed guards, up to and including the National Guard, many people would be rightfully furious.

The difference is America, being a federation, has many layers of armed police, from the NYPD to NYPD special ops to the National Guard to the FBI and Marshalls to the Army. France, being more unitary (departments don’t have National Guard analogues), escalates more quickly to deploying its military.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#159

Post by Tomte »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #80
cbg0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of this was not democratic?

When you have massive parts of the population telling you they're not going to vote for you again if you support a piece of legislation, I'd say it's reasonable to say you are betraying your voters when you don't even reconsider your position.

"Massive parts of the population"?

You mean a handful activists? The people at large do not care one bit.

You can claim that you're acting in their best interest, so they should be counted as "on your side", but that's obviously false.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#160

Post by swebs »

I_am_tiberius wrote: post #116

Humanity did not change since WW2. The one big difference is/was the Internet. Without a free Internet, who knows what happens. It is unbelievable.

>Without a free Internet, who knows what happens.

You don't even need to speculate. Just look at China

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