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I'm going to work full-time on free software

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Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#151

Post by danans »

linuxftw wrote: post #98
danans wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $31,200 * 328,300,000 population of USA = $10,242,960,000,000 To start with, 24% of the population are minors, so that knocks a few trillion off that figure. Secondly, a UBI isn't a living wage, so $15 in today to dollars is not a starting figure, because that is a wage in exchange for work. UBI is meant to cover the very basics, like a food and varying amounts of housing (depending on the local housing market). Fo…

> UBI is meant to cover the very basics, like a food and varying amounts of housing (depending on the local housing market). For some, it operates as a dividend that helps make ends meet on top of their regular work, especially in high cost areas. This merely will keep wages low (what currently is happening) by subsidizing poor pay. Many cities have subsidized housing (and/or rent control). The net effect is these pe…

> Many cities have subsidized housing (and/or rent control). The net effect is these people can 'afford' to live in areas while making lower pay.

Many wealthy people who live in rent-controlled or property-tax capped housing benefited handsomely from the huge tax break passed by the previous Congress. Some of them have normal income but large inherited wealthbheld in securities like stocks, which also appreciated due to the corporate cuts. They can afford to live in places their income couldn't otherwise support. Your logic applies equally to that situation. You will always find people who you can argue unfairly benefit from a redistribution scheme.

At least with subsidized housing the program is government administered so it can be accounted for when considering UBI.

UBI doesn't erase the reality that some people got a better deal in housing, or life, but for a huge number of people who are scraping by, it helps put a floor under them.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#152

Post by doubleunplussed »

skrowl wrote: post #18

Here's my best argument for why UBI can't work in the USA. Let me know where i went wrong: My TV told me a "living wage" is at least $15 (but probably higher in liberal controlled areas like NYC / most CA cities / etc due to high cost of living & taxation), but we'll start with $15 to make it easy. $15/hr at 40hr/week = $31,200 per year. $31,200 * 328,300,000 population of USA = $10,242,960,000,000 Written out (for e…

I can't believe there aren't more responses to you saying this, but obviously you need to increase taxes. UBI advocates need to admit that that is what they are advocating. I certainly am.

...but this increase of taxes would not harm average people, because they would basically receive the same back in UBI as the increase.

Overhead would be lower than administering current welfare payments, since it's universal so they wouldn't need to do any eligibility checks - just making sure you're a real person so that you can't get it twice under multiple names or something.

Other than that it would be break-even for the government, and for the average person. It's just income redistribution. You're taking the money from the wealthy, and giving it to everyone. The average person will receive as much as they pay and will be in the same position as before. The wealthy will pay more in taxes and have less money after tax. The poor will pay less than them and will have more money in the end.

It's not that complicated, and it's not magic. UBI advocates are advocating redistribution large enough to support basic needs. Yes, that means taking money away from the wealthier people in society, but UBI advocates think we can afford this as a society.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#153

Post by AdrianB1 »

onetimeusename wrote: post #79
RussianCow wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people probably won't do nothing because that's boring. I think you underestimate the amount of people that are content with not doing anything.

yes, I am surprised this is overlooked. It may be that tech workers who like the idea of UBI imagine working on open source projects. I picture a large percentage of the population choosing to use drugs, drink, play video games, pick up a hobby that doesn't pay, watch TV, or even just do nothing. Then as a result of squandering their time, these people could become permanently unemployable or unskilled and would have…

With UBI people will stop using drugs because there will be no drug dealers to provide: the drug dealers will enjoy UBI and leave a risky business /s

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#154

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

blfr wrote: post #83
peatmoss wrote: post #12

My best argument for UBI is, “I’d love to be able to work on F/OSS full time.” Kudos for making it a reality. It may be scratching a personal itch, but the positive externalities to society are real.

Yeah, it's the modern version of a minor landed gentleman who can pursue his interests. It's how we got science. Sadly, the best argument against UBI is that vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else.

I’m quite happy if the vast majority of people doing active harm to society by working for evil corporations just do nothing instead. Quite possibly a net improvement just that.

I also imagine that if vast amount of people suddenly had more time on their hands there would be lot less need for services now optimized to keep them employed. Day care, schools and such would perhaps change into something more participatory.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#155

Post by AdrianB1 »

tom_ wrote: post #87
krunaldo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, first you have to calculate that the company pays 31.42% of your total salary in payroll taxes. This is illegal to print or show in any way or form to the employee from the employer. Then on most goods there is a 25% tax, additional taxes other categories of goods such as gas, cars, alcohol and so forth. So if the company pays you 60k SEK, you'll see ~45k on your payroll slip. The 61% percentage is the average…

Payroll tax is not your salary - it's tax on their employment of you, of an amount due that's proportional to your salary. It's the company's money, not yours. (Would they pay you more if that tax wasn't due? Well, possibly, I suppose. Or they might just pay you the same, and then buy more stuff, employ more people, pay the company owners more money, that sort of thing.)

What are you smoking? Change it, it is bad for logic: any tax a company pays for you is from the money you bring in, not from the shareholders personal bank accounts. Nobody pays for the pleasure to have someone as an employee, but for the employee to deliver more than what is paid, otherwise you go under.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#156

Post by gpm »

tokyodude wrote: post #114
gpm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could get away with a UBI which is substantially less than that. $12,000/person/year seems like it should be easily sufficient - since I live on that much excepting tuition in downtown Toronto (not cheap), in CAD (so really a lot less), just fine. Keep in mind that when you are counting per person that means you are allocating that much for people not in the workforce like children too. A 4 person househo…

What will happen with the people who can't manage their money and blow their UBI other things?

One proposal I've heard for this is spreading it over the year, have the government deposit money in a back account once per week (this requires a system where everyone has bank accounts to get UBI, but that shouldn't be too costly).

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#157

Post by softawre »

tokyodude wrote: post #120
dllthomas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing that happens now when people who can't manage their money blow their salary on other things, except that it's marginally clearer what the problem is.

Right now those people get food stamps and welfare

You'd dole out UBI biweekly or whatever to solve the same problems that food stamps solve? I agree it's a good question though.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#158

Post by simlevesque »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #123
simlevesque wrote: post #119

<3 Thanks for your work on Sway, wlroots and sr.ht ! I use all three every day.

I'm glad that you like them!

Thank you too :D I used to see you all the time here but now that I use Sway I appreciate your work even more!

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#159

Post by SolaceQuantum »

andy_adams wrote: post #131
smt88 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else. I doubt this. Everyone has dreams or long-term things they enjoy working on. And UBI wouldn't be enough for most people, so they'd at least pursue some form of cash-generating work.

You must roll with some motivated crowds if everyone has long-term goals. > 60% of the folks I meet would be pretty content watching TV all day, every day. When you talk to them, they just talk about the shows they watched.

I believe of the people who discuss shows they watched, this is actualy used as a way to bond with their peers, whom they are stuck with 8 hours a day.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#160

Post by Verdex »

andy_adams wrote: post #131
smt88 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else. I doubt this. Everyone has dreams or long-term things they enjoy working on. And UBI wouldn't be enough for most people, so they'd at least pursue some form of cash-generating work.

You must roll with some motivated crowds if everyone has long-term goals. > 60% of the folks I meet would be pretty content watching TV all day, every day. When you talk to them, they just talk about the shows they watched.

Most people just want to waste time watching TV would be the good outcome. I'm more concerned that it turns out that once money is no longer a concern that a large portion of people would spend their time trying to figure out how to cause problems for others.

How many people would ignore education, socialization, and general societal cohesiveness if they knew that they would never have to worry about getting along with anyone else in order to survive.

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