China Cracks Down on Churches • Hacker News Board

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#151

Post by geofft » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #92

tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

I think part of the answer is that these churches are tied to Western missionary movements pushing a Western reading of Christianity (not so much on purpose as because that's "Christianity" to them).

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#152

Post by mmirate » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #13

whitecatexport wrote: post #2

China cracks down on 2000-year old invisible friends brain virus, as they should

They're simply cracking down on a particular brand of being staunchly non-aligned with their totalitarian vision of reality. Which is probably exactly what you dislike about Christianity, that total claim to truth, and converting or murdering people in the past, right? So why gloat when now people get persecuted who aren't persecuting others? Because they carry the same "brain virus" as people who did in the past, as…

Humanity isn't yet omniscient; therefore, no-one should hold a total claim to truth in the way that either authoritarians or religions do.

Therefore I have sympathy for neither of the parties involved in the events described by this article.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#153

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

The fish is a symbol for Christianity precisely because of its long history of being forbidden. The Greek word for fish is an acronym for, iirc, Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit. (That's from memory from taking two classes of Greek in the Bible Belt more than 20 years ago. I think I googled it recently and got something that did not include Holy Spirit.)

It seems to me the Christian tradition of being a persecuted religion makes it well suited to fostering an underground movement in an oppressive climate. I imagine this is the Crux of the issue, both a reason it appeals and a reason the government is trying to shut it down.

I'm seeing some remarks in comments that don't fit my understanding of the history. Christianity spread in part because it was very open to embracing local customs. This is why we have an Easter Bunny and Santa Claus associated with major Christian religious holidays. Jesus also said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." Iirc, he was talking about paying taxes.

So, on the one hand, it's a subversive religion. On the other hand, it's a religion that is flexible and not absolutist. It can coexist with a lot of other things.

Jesus himself was subversive. Among other things, he overturned the tables of the money changers because he was offended that this was at the church.

The biblical stories thus contain information about how to engage in nonviolent resistance. Again, this may be a big part of the appeal. Is there much difference between saving your soul and saving you from tyranny and oppression?

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#154

Post by chillacy » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

joejerryronnie wrote: post #80

kumarvvr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why we need to sever economic ties with China Then someone else will step in. What needs to be done is clever diplomacy. A carrot and stick policy and long-term thinking.

Diplomacy clearly does not work with China. The only thing that works is direct, aggressive competition. Hopefully this does not lead to military conflict but I worry that the US and China are on an inevitable path at this point.

China has something like 4x the US population, assuming they’re equally smart and driven on average, why wouldn’t they attain 4x the gdp eventually?

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#155

Post by geofft » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

throwaway7312 wrote: post #96

kadendogthing wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, Literally no one does this. Western Christians are incapable of facing persecution in the current social and economic climate. This is because Christians by and large make up every pillar of Western society. It has nothing to do with someone being a Christian else where in the world. The sentiment you are attempt…

> Christians by and large make up every pillar of Western society ... except Hollywood, academia, Silicon Valley, Wall Street, K Street, much of the publishing industry, and the mainstream media. Fixed that for you. And Merry Christmas!

Wall Street is the first place I've worked that takes Good Friday off. If you're in town, come by Trinity (which is literally at the end of Wall Street) to see how packed it is on Christmas or Easter. Or even on a weekday—does your church have three attended services every day?

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#156

Post by timthorn » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

xvilka wrote: post #34

intralizee wrote: post #20

Writing from the perspective of a person who literally had a life ruined by religious ideology impairing the mental judgement of parental figures. This is literally one of the best things I've read in my life. Going to be unpopular opinion because of people indoctrinated into freedom of expression but why not. Religious ideology has done more damage than terrorism to LGBT people. The result has lead to suicides and t…

Not only LGBT, religion (not only Christianity) had done an enormous harm to women in all times (and still does).

It could be argued that the opposite is true - that Christianity required its adherents to respect women.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#157

Post by selimthegrim » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

dahidahi1 wrote: post #56

CapacitorSet wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Finally someone has the balls to call out what is a total & unequivocal anti-mankind force. That would be nice, but it's not the case of China. As the article mentions, the crackdown merely affects independent churches.

IMO — There is no such thing as "independent" churches. It's a very big ecosystem, an ecosystem that has forced us to invent the word "Secularism". Not sure if you have forgotten...

I thought the usual line is that Sanatan Dharma is naturally secular...

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#158

Post by 77pt77 » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

NedIsakoff wrote: post #15

Are you surprised? China suffered 20-30 million deaths under the "Brother of Christ". It does not want another "Brother" or "Sister"..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

For those not getting the reference,

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#159

Post by grumpydba » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

ghobs91 wrote: post #29

This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, based entirely on their experiences in the US. The Christians in China are very brave for standing by their faith, and I wish them luck and peace.

Christians are literally the most persecuted on earth. This is a known fact.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#160

Post by KaoruAoiShiho » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

chapium wrote: post #83

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to be open to the idea that they're wrong, even atheists. Monocultures where other people are forced to accept your values create stagnation and dangers long term. There have been plenty of evil committed in the name of enforcing that which is righteous: communism, religions of all types, even democracy. It's better to let people have the freedom to make their own choices. You can choose to learn from the…

This paints atheism as its own philosophy, but that would be inaccurate. To reject one philosophy does not automatically default you to a separate one.

A null state is still a state. Whether it's a philosophy or not is not a useful distinction in this context. That being said, I'm an atheist of course.