Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages • Hacker News Board

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#151

Post by didibus » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 8:05 AM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #19

wpietri wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of any normal employee, "non-enforceable" doesn't matter. That I can eventually win in court doesn't matter if I can't afford the time, money, and stress to get that ruling. Exactly the goal, I'm sure, of the people writing up these agreements.

From the perspective of the normal employee they should understand they pretty much won't be enforced. The threat will be made. And then no follow up.

I've known a few people who were pursued for NCs, I think you'd be surprised, it happens more frequently then you think.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#152

Post by rectang » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 8:22 AM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #96

logfromblammo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All other things being equal, businesses will hire the candidate that they can potentially abuse before the one that may righteously push back. So if you are one who would negotiate the terms of a non-compete, you will not even get the opportunity until all those who will just blindly sign it have been given the chance to do so. The smart-ass part is signaling that you're less-abusable before the decision is made on…

How do you do this when the signature happens online rather than on paper?

I hated how Zenefits made my employment contract like a click through software license agreement. It's not like I'm accepting the iTunes terms of service here -- this is a crucial document and much more likely to have life-altering consequences.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#153

Post by LoSboccacc » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 8:36 AM UTC

chris_engel wrote: post #30

Thank god the german law requires a NC clause to have a compensation directly mentioned in the contract that is not allowed to be less than 60% the person earned in the company in the last year she worked there. If the compensation is missing or too low, the NC is against the law. In other words: if a company wants me to not compete, they need to pay me for the time the NC is active. Its also limited to a maximum of…

> german law requires a NC clause to have a compensation directly mentioned in the contract

same in Italy. a contract that has no reciprocity is easily nullable hence non compete are separate from employment contracts and include a monetary compensation. they also have to be restricted in scope to actual competition (ie.e same customers or exact market), because you can't contract away the constitutional right to work from people.

there are some interesting side effects too: it's good for the employer because this allows non compete to extend longer than employment, and good it's for the employee because you get payed for all the time the non compete is valid even if no longer employed at the company.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#154

Post by rectang » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 8:53 AM UTC

hellbanner wrote: post #65

Hah. I interviewed for a [growing in popularity and market share] top 20 cryptocoin. They had some curious choice of words in their "freelance" contract, notably that it would use German copyright law to transfer rights of all inventions I ever made. I pointed out that a couple of the phrases in the contract, when combined, indicated they would have IP rights to EVERYTHING I did not just work they paid me for. They m…

Things like this motivate me to stay in California and work for small companies for the rest of my life, so that California Labor Code § 2870 applies and I get to keep the rights to independent inventions if I'm careful.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#155

Post by mcv » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 8:53 AM UTC

cialowicz wrote: post #120

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are most valuable in a position that leverages your existing skills and expertise. Exactly. So per the non-compete, you'd have to take a position where you are only 40% as valuable as you could be—and the 60% noncompete makes up the difference.

What about the opportunity loss that results from taking a less relevant job with worse career prospects?

That sounds like a bad idea, but you could also take it as an opportunity to develop in a new direction and build some experience there.

It's probably a bad deal for people who are extremely specialised and want to stay that way, but it'd be a pretty good deal for people like me, who love an excuse to learn something new.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#156

Post by cabraca » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #143

grecy wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 60%? Forget that. Why should anyone give up their right to work for a little over half of their market value? Well, you could take the American option where you're not allowed to work in that field, so you get 0% of your salary... (California excluded, if I understand correctly)

The German dev gets paid 25% of the US dev salary though.

+ pension + healthcare + mandatory 20 vacation days + max. 48h workweeks + mandatory 30 days notice period + better social security net

and i dont need a gofundme page in case someone in my family gets cancer ...

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#157

Post by BonesJustice » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #140

BonesJustice wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60%? Forget that. Why should anyone give up their right to work for a little over half of their market value? There is no excuse for allowing less than 100% compensation, and that should include not just salary, but projected bonuses.

I love non-competes that pay me compensation and will happily (more than happily) sign one. But, yeah, 100% or it's no deal. If they want to pay 60% then they can easily cut the time be the same factor ;-) Personally, I won't negotiate for bonuses, or equity equivalent, though... just salary. I'm happy to use that time to invest in myself. It gets too complicated otherwise. I tend to negotiate for max salary anyway,…

If it’s not based on total compensation, employers will just use that as a loophole. Compensation will shift even more heavily away from salaries to “additional” income.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#158

Post by swish_bob » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 9:38 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #79

> They also determined that patenting rates -- a useful proxy for innovation -- dropped after the change. In a place where non-compete agreements are not allowed, patenting ideas is a neat way to prevent your employees leaving and then doing the exact same thing for a competitor. Where non-competes are allowed, patenting things is far less important, since employees won't be able to jump ship with your ideas easily.

This really isn't true. Generally patents are used to prevent your competitors deliberately reverse engineering your innovation and selling it (which isn't _generally_ all that hard), and (by very large companies) to have something to negotiate with when you inevitably discover you're violating a patent you were unaware of, since at this point you dig for the patent your competitor is accidentally violating and come to an agreement to license them back to each other in exchange for not suing.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#159

Post by hvidgaard » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 9:47 AM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #144

im3w1l wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60% of salary with no duties? Perfect opportunity to create that Theranos for consumer goods logistics startup you've always dreamed of.

That'd be competing. Given any company can pivot to do anything. Yoga instructor? Cough non-compete!

Until you do pivot, you are not competing.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#160

Post by drawkbox » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 9:50 AM UTC

Non-competes, the most anti-innovation, anti-skilled worker, anti-free market, anti-business and anti-American thing in working today.

Non-competes are protectionism for larger businesses over small/medium businesses and try to own employees skills that they may have brought to the company or client themselves.

As a freelancer, contractor and self-employed business owner/worker, please make these illegal, tired of these.

The worst part about non-competes is they are blanket protectionism usually and up to 2+ years of non-compete, this sometimes happens on a job that is only 1-3 months. You have to laugh at those types of situations. Usually the client will push them aside or lower the time to the job plus some time, but both non-competes and arbitration agreements are horrible for workers in today's economy where people change jobs frequently and many are self-employed/freelancing/contracting. NDAs are plenty enough to protect companies from clients and work done specifically for the projects.

After SCOTUS upheld arbitration agreements [1] I am worried if non-competes become fully legal which they are not in extreme cases except in California [2]. We need to move the way of California and make them null and illegal, it hasn't stopped innovation in CA and may be a big reason why so much innovation goes on in Cali.

The non-compete should not exist. At the core, removing competition from skilled workers in our economy is bad all around, unless you are one of the current big fish.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/business/supreme-court-up...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/business/noncompete-claus...