Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#151

Post by mjevans » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 12:24 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #131

DoreenMichele wrote: post #118

The risk of eviction, meanwhile, can be roughly measured by the percentage of people’s incomes that they spend on shelter each month. As of 2015, 17 percent of Americans spent half or more of their incomes on rent. This is why we (here in the US) need to address housing. And I don't know what term to use. "Affordable housing" is the term I want to default to, but that gets misinterpreted by people and ends up being a…

Adam Smith observed years ago that cost of housing tends to eat up most people's pay raises. Which is to say if you can afford more you get more. Of course there are limits. Everybody has a point where their house is big enough for them and there are no better areas to move to (or the better areas are out of reach). Then they improve it for lack of anything else to to with their money.

There's also the issue of rent-seeking hoarders. If "everyone" can pay more for the same thing, the cost of that thing rises to what the market will tolerate. It's basic Econ-101.

"A place to live" is only elastic in the number of people that want to live there. Right now more people want to live in cities than there are places in cities (particularly well built, noise and odd smell insulated places), so even though the quality of housing is lower than alternatives the cost to rent or buy is not reflective of that lack in quality.

The cost of building, in terms of land, approvals, delays in construction, etc is also not favorable.

At least to me as an outside observer, it seems EXTREMELY LIKELY that the 'market' is misaligned to the needs of the people and in need of a deep systemic overhaul including a review of regulations that encourage / discourage various activities.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#152

Post by macNchz » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 12:27 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #118

The risk of eviction, meanwhile, can be roughly measured by the percentage of people’s incomes that they spend on shelter each month. As of 2015, 17 percent of Americans spent half or more of their incomes on rent. This is why we (here in the US) need to address housing. And I don't know what term to use. "Affordable housing" is the term I want to default to, but that gets misinterpreted by people and ends up being a…

The other major issue with the single family home focus in the US is with how much wealth Americans have tied up in their homes–the goal of having affordable housing is at odds with the goal of having houses be investments that forever increase in value.

Plenty of people will advocate for ensuring that there is plenty of affordable housing, but as soon as prices actually go down and homes become more affordable it's as if the sky is falling. It makes sense given there are millions of people whose net worth/retirement/future stability is tied up in the long term growth in the paper value of their houses, but it's a tough problem to solve from a policy point of view.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#153

Post by mjevans » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 12:28 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #108

xadhominemx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody's insecure about non-whites having the ability to vote Actually they are, and go so far as to pass laws specifically to suppress non-white votes https://twitter.com/haroldpollack/status/1051657219899617280

Wow! Talk about not providing context for that quote! The State's argument was voting hours were inconsistent across the state. The districts that offered additional voting opportunities, that other districts did not have , were predominantly African American and would vote Democratic. So their answer was to ban Sunday voting so that every district had the same window of opportunity to vote . One could argue that the…

At least in King County WA (which contains Seattle) EVERYONE gets mail-in ballots. They can be dropped off at drop boxes, and they can now also just be dropped off in any post-office box (without a stamp).

Every ballot is a mail in ballot.

~4 weeks before the election that thing arrives, I spend a few hours the next weekend going over the choices I didn't already evaluate in the primary before the election, and I drop that thing off like a hot potato as I ignore the political ads.

Everyone should have mail in ballots and as much time as they need to fill it out.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#154

Post by refurb » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 12:29 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #147

refurb wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! Talk about not providing context for that quote! The State's argument was voting hours were inconsistent across the state. The districts that offered additional voting opportunities, that other districts did not have , were predominantly African American and would vote Democratic. So their answer was to ban Sunday voting so that every district had the same window of opportunity to vote . One could argue that the…

"In emails, state and county Republican officials lobbied members of at least 17 county election boards to keep early-voting sites open for shorter hours on weekends and in evenings – times that usually see disproportionately high turnout by Democratic voters. Reuters obtained the emails through a public records request." "The officials also urged county election boards to open fewer sites for residents to cast ballo…

The Republican Party is morally bankrupt.

I would argue creating special voting opportunities (i.e. Sunday voting) that directly appeal to the people who vote for you is morally bankrupt.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#155

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 12:42 AM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #117

umvi wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a well off software developer. I've been using a $50 Nokia Lumia 520 for the past 3 years or so. When this one dies I'll likely "splurge" and buy a Nokia 2 ($100). That our I'll buy a Blu phone ($50). I would consider my neighbors poor. They have state-subsidized rent, for example. They use food stamps. They also smoke a pack a day each. All they need to do to buy a new phone is not smoke for 5 days. Not that it…

Having an iPhone isn't inexplicable. You can finance or lease a phone for $30-$40 a month. And given the extraordinary advantages having a smartphone provides, it would be inexplicable if they did not do so. Also, cigarettes are an appetite suppressant and in many places are cheaper than food. Food stamps are hardly comprehensive. Cheaper, that is, until it all catches up to you medically. One thing I've learned in m…

[deleted]

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#156

Post by wahern » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 1:14 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #154

wahern wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In emails, state and county Republican officials lobbied members of at least 17 county election boards to keep early-voting sites open for shorter hours on weekends and in evenings – times that usually see disproportionately high turnout by Democratic voters. Reuters obtained the emails through a public records request." "The officials also urged county election boards to open fewer sites for residents to cast ballo…

The Republican Party is morally bankrupt. I would argue creating special voting opportunities (i.e. Sunday voting) that directly appeal to the people who vote for you is morally bankrupt.

Except that's not how it happened. The original 2000 bill permitted localities to provide 17 days of early voting and it turned out (not something that was known beforehand) that Blacks disproportionately voted during the first week, and especially the first weekend:

"The data also showed that black voters were more likely to make use of early voting — particularly the first seven days out of North Carolina's 17-day voting period. So lawmakers eliminated these seven days of voting. 'After receipt of this racial data, the General Assembly amended the bill to eliminate the first week of early voting, shortening the total early voting period from seventeen to ten days,' the court found."

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/the-s...

This isn't even one of those issues where one can employ whataboutism. The motivations and behaviors are express, unambiguous, and unilateral.

It's one thing to be concerned about voter fraud and fairness. But when one group selects solutions out of a large basket of potential solutions that not only happen to consistently disadvantage a particular group but are express in their motivations.... I mean, come on. How many of these Republican states have thought about improving ballot audits? Just today Paul Ryan made a comment about how California's voting rules were too susceptible to voter fraud, but they fail to mention that California actually has very robust auditing processes and continues to improve them. And, notably, the pro-immigrant camps aren't crying foul.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#157

Post by PenguinCoder » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 1:20 AM UTC

yammajr wrote: post #85

coryrc wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A car isn't a necessity. A $500-$1000 phone is not a necessity. These are bad choices people make. Why they make those choices is subject to many theories, but their situation is entirely within their power (but maybe not knowledge) to fix.

> A car isn't a necessity If you happen to live in a city. If you live outside a big metro area, at least in the US, a car absolutely is a necessity. Where I live, there are no buses, no cabs, no uber, nothing. I don't have children or need to haul large loads frequently, so I might be able to make it work, but it would be a HUGE quality of life hit, necessitating taking a different job nearer me which almost certain…

I agree and my situation in regards to Uber/public transportation is the same. People who say a car isn't a necessity in America, have likely never lived out of a big city. I live in a rural area (not quite USDA definition), where the closest store is 12mi one way. It's a convenience store/gas station. The grocery store is 3mi more up the road. I have kids, animals, and somewhat of a small hobby farm (chickens, garden, etc).

It is an absolute necessity for me to have a car and all the costs that entails. I'd rather give up my cell phone than the car.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#158

Post by darpa_escapee » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 1:23 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #123

michaelchisari wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having an iPhone isn't inexplicable. You can finance or lease a phone for $30-$40 a month. And given the extraordinary advantages having a smartphone provides, it would be inexplicable if they did not do so. Also, cigarettes are an appetite suppressant and in many places are cheaper than food. Food stamps are hardly comprehensive. Cheaper, that is, until it all catches up to you medically. One thing I've learned in m…

> Having an iPhone isn't inexplicable. You can finance or lease a phone for $30-$40 a month. And given the extraordinary advantages having a smartphone provides, it would be inexplicable if they did not do so. It's inexplicable when there are alternative phones available for 1/10 the cost. Why would you choose to take on a $40/mo expense when you could buy an entire fully functioning low end Android phone for $40? >…

> Why would you choose to take on a $40/mo expense when you could buy an entire fully functioning low end Android phone for $40?

I've used $40 Android phones, and they're barely usable with modern apps.

Once the battery starts to degrade, which happens quickly, performance drops from barely usable to intermittently usable, with frequent freezing and reboots.

Looking at Sprint.com, iPhones are available for $18 a month.

Do you own a laptop or a workstation?

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#159

Post by seiferteric » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 1:32 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #34

chrisco255 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the availability of cheap credit has made me worry a bit less about getting slammed with some unexpected expense. That's not to say that I don't put money away for retirement and rainy days...but credit cards do make it easier to float if you suddenly find yourself unemployed.

I know so many folks deeply underwater because they "floated" on credit card debt during lean times. I've been there, even, when I started my first company I ended up racking up tens of thousands of dollars worth of credit card debt, before finding a profitable niche (several years later than I expected...when I quit my first job I had $$36,000 in savings, which at ~25 seemed like a lot of money). It's pretty dangero…

That's not the same thing, you funded your company on credit cards...

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#160

Post by mback00 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 1:35 AM UTC

It is not useful to define a demographic of the destitute at a standard relative to the median. (Note: Advancement of inequality of outcome beyond poverty is a _virtue_ of free society.) It is more virtuous to define an absolute poverty value and seek to ensure that the societal wealth distribution minimum never reaches the minimum - then allow maximal opportunity for all individuals to achieve any outcome they desire. If this model is achieved, all are then maximally provided for and maximally contributing to the civil society.