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MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

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Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#151

MongoDB doesn't deserve all the credit (or blame) for what they've created. The client libraries are true open source projects, and a lot of the good parts of the design have probably come from them. I think they've also accepted a lot of contributions to mongod without compensation, and had the copyright assigned to them. Having the copyright assigned to them is reasonable, but it facilitates them closing an open so…

They use plenty of other open source components as well. As I pointed out in other parts of the discussion they use PostGres beneath the scenarios for their reporting solution and charge customers for it. What do they contribute back to the PostGres community?

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those that don’t know, they are sometimes pronounced the exact same, which is why they are often mixed up (see also affect and effect). Where I’m from weary is pronounced WEER-y though.

I hear "weary" spoken so very rarely that I have no idea how it's pronounced here (Indiana). I can't even make up my mind how I pronounce it, but I'd wager it's almost, but not quite, indistinguishable from wary.

One is w-ee-ry the other w-ah-ry.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#153

Yeah, I'm not necessarily opposed to the general spirit of what they're trying to do here, but this license just doesn't make sense in practice. Now that I've had more time to look at it, I'd really recommend that everybody stay the f%!# away from MongoDB. This bit in particular really hits the nail on the head: Let's assume that it is ok somehow to pass forward other open source software, solving that problem. What…

Hmm ... Would this technically be the ultimate Stallman dream?

No, technically, Stallman is firmly rooted in copyright law. GPL says you take this software and make derived works, as copyright law says what they are, as long as you make derivative works available under the same terms as you received the original software.

GPL steers clear of non-derived work. If you use VMWare on Linux, VMWare is not a derived work as far as copyright law is concerned and there is no relation between them as far as GPL is concerned.

This SSPL, is another story.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#154
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not what I called HA or horizontal scaling. Have a look at what MongoDB or Cassandra do.

Unless you're operating at Google/FB/Twitter/etc scale, this is not a problem most of us face IRL. We need to stop pretending we have these problems at 99% of the places we work at. Most of us don't. We don't need 1,000 microservices, Kubernetes, Docker, and a terribly unreliable NoSQL database like MongoDb (there are better, more optimal solutions for those companies than MongoDb (Cassandra being one of them.))

The fact that someone has to manually promote a slave as master is a big operational cost. The people that actually use PG at scale have to write a lot of tools / plumbing to overcome those issues, the same "issues" that were solved by most NoSQL solution, horizontal scaling, HA, shards re-balancing ect ...

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#155

Okay so after reading the article, and thinking about this for a while, I get the following out of this debacle: The issue here is that SaaS providers are building tools on top of MongoDB that effectively add functionality, instead of modifying MongoDB (which would force them to share those changes publicly). This is a valid concern and I understand the motivation behind the license change. However, how is this diffe…

Disclosure: I work for MongoDB.

You're in the right ballpark, for sure, but the SSPL addresses the difference explicitly. I'll use your example of Tumblr to clarify.

Tumblr is built on some component technologies, like a database, an app framework, operating systems, backup systems, load balancing, etc. But Tumblr itself is not any of those things. Nor does it make any of its component technologies available to the public as a service. You cannot pay Tumblr to backup your servers, or to rent you VMs running an OS, or to do load balancing for your infrastructure. Even if every single one of those components were licensed under the SSPL, Tumblr would not have to release a single line of their code under the SSPL, because they provide something else -- a publishing platform.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#156
post #62

Only a data point here -- after I read about this license change on HN, it took me about 2 hours to struggle over the issue, discuss with my team, and switch from MongoDB to PostgreSql. We are very lucky in that we were into this project for only two months, prototyping and learning the ropes with MongoDB schema. With PostgreSql now, everyone feels secure in a familiar territory. Yes, we have to make changes and its…

Mongo doesn’t need a questionable license to make Postgres a better choice.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#157

Disclosure: I work for MongoDB. If you look at these two threads you'll find my comments in them, addressing similar concerns to those raised in this one. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229013 To reiterate those comments, the SSPL only affects people who are offering the licensed software to the public as a service. This does not include any software that uses Mon…

Does MongoDB also release their stack or are they exempt from the disclosure requirement? Apologies if this has been asked a million times -- didn't see it in a skim of your linked discussions nor the FAQ.

No apologies required! If we see this question come up a lot we can add it to the FAQ.

MongoDB does not release the stack for Atlas, our SaaS. That's possible because we own the copyright to the source code -- we don't have to issue the software to ourselves.

The blog post we published announcing the change covers this, as well as our motivations and expectations in a lot of detail:

https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/mongodb-now-released-under...

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SSPL does not create that obligation.

No, because it's even worse than that. "management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software" encompasses everything behind the server, everything in front of the server, and basically everything beside the server.

See my main thread post addressing this misconception. The SSPL's obligation to release those components only applies in the case that the user is offering the licensed software itself as a service.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#159

Disclosure: I work for MongoDB. If you look at these two threads you'll find my comments in them, addressing similar concerns to those raised in this one. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229013 To reiterate those comments, the SSPL only affects people who are offering the licensed software to the public as a service. This does not include any software that uses Mon…

> The FAQ we put out here makes that clear

...while the license itself absolutely does not. I can read the GPL and tell what's expected of me, but I have no idea how to interpret clauses like:

> Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network,

Explicitly calls out allowing users to access MongoDB.

> offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version,

Explicitly calls out interacting with MongoDB. My company's website is basically a wrapper around accepting a query from a user, converting that into the appropriate NoSQL query, reformatting the result, and presenting it to the users. Since our web server is more or less an abstraction layer from the underlying database, it sounds like our whole website would be subject to the new terms.

> or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Software or modified version.

Does not explicitly mention MongoDB, except by contrast implying that if we offer a service - even one not MongoDB-based - that accomplishes the primary purpose of MongoDB or a fork of it, then we're subject to the new terms.

FAQ be damned, it's the license itself that's clear as mud.

> The only people we want to be in any way affected by it are those who are literally offering the licensed software as a service, and we want those people to release their management stack under the SSPL.

Engineer to engineer, do you understand why so many of us find this uniquely onerous?

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#160

Absolutely. This license change takes it completely out of the contention for anything I would have previously considered it for. Can you imagine if Nginx said you had to release any software you run behind it as FOSS?

The SSPL does not create that obligation.

Even if it wasn’t intended to do that, the sheer amount of uncertainty this creates is untenable for many projects.
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