So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale • Hacker News Board

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#151

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

michaelcampbell wrote: post #60

dragonwriter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be more accurate to ask: “How the F can anyone make any money when Starbucks is on every other street corner and has the advantages of scale they have.” Source and roast your own beans, don't overroast the beans, charge a premium over Starbucks for not producing crap coffee from overroasted beans. Starbucks does some impressive work with the candy flavors it adds to distract from their coffee, but...

This is a thinly disguised rant of your tastes vs. Starbucks as opposed to any kind of actual answer. And kind of hipster pretentious douchey to those that may like it. Try again?

> This is a thinly disguised rant of your tastes vs. Starbucks as opposed to any kind of actual answer

No, it's an actual answer of one way that a number of relatively small and some fairly large coffee shop chains can and do survive when Starbucks exists and is ubiquitous.

It includes, of course, an endorsement of the taste to which those shops appeal as part of that strategy.

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#152

Post by unstuckdev » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #22

chrisseaton wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do coffee shops like Starbucks mange to support 20 working part time plus a corporate headquarters and make a profit, from the same small store you would operate as a hobby?

By selling a LOT of coffee. Starbucks stores can have a 1000 orders per day [1] A poet / artist space will be lucky to have a few dozen people come in every day. [1]: https://www.quora.com/How-many-customers-does-an-average-Sta...

One of the local coffee shops solves this problem by also being a music school: http://hometownrhythms.com/

They also have regular musical acts. The Athens/metro Atlanta area has a lot of cover bands.

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#153

Post by tudelo » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #125

dragonwriter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be more accurate to ask: “How the F can anyone make any money when Starbucks is on every other street corner and has the advantages of scale they have.” Source and roast your own beans, don't overroast the beans, charge a premium over Starbucks for not producing crap coffee from overroasted beans. Starbucks does some impressive work with the candy flavors it adds to distract from their coffee, but...

" charge a premium over Starbucks " $15 lattes, anyone?

To be fair, a starbucks latte is more like 5 dollars..

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#154

Post by jrochkind1 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #107

thedataangel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starbucks is next to non-existent in Australia. Partly it's because there were already established local chains when they tried to move into the market, but mostly because you can walk into almost any cafe in the country and get a much better cup of coffee at a comparable price.

> you can walk into almost any cafe in the country and get a much better cup of coffee at a comparable price. This is also true in the United States and yet here we are.

It wasn't when Starbucks started. There used to be a real dearth of quality prepared coffee in America, and Starbucks was often the first place in many towns (not talking NYC or LA or San Fran or Chicago) to get a decent cup of coffee.

I don't know what to take from that though with regard to what y'all are arguing about, I can't really explain the economics of it all. But I think it's a fact that at the point Starbucks was expanding to be national, it was not true that most places it was expanding to had plenty of places where you could get a much better cup of coffee at a comparable price. Starbucks actually brought "coffee culture" to most of the U.S. (if it wasn't them it would have been someone else, this was when "foodie" culture in general was becoming a thing, people with enough money to were becoming more interested in 'gourmet' everything).

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#155

Post by jrochkind1 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:59 PM UTC

robotbikes wrote: post #145

clarkevans wrote: post #62

The author talks about this as a charitable (501c3) vs for-profit endeavor. I don't see any talk about using a cooperative structure. Cooperatives don't need IRS approval, since they operate commercially; any profits (and there won't be) are distributed proportionally to the users of the facility via 1099-DIV. Then, you run a membership drive to raise money. The membership then is used to select the board. Anyway, th…

Cooperatives still require everyone to pitch in and some way of dividing the labor and building accountability for performing the tedious tasks that are essential to maintain a legal entity. Unless you have the funds to pay everyone a living wage and in return some form of sustainable sizable income it is difficult to get the same level of contribution from people. In my experience with cooperatives they aren't the m…

It's definitely just a tool, and not a magic bullet. I too think it's a pretty good tool for the kind of enterprise talked about in the OP though.

I also agree with the OP (and you) that forced rotation of leadership is a great idea, for a variety of reasons.

But to be sure, starting a small retail business and succeeding is hard no matter what. And starting a _collective_ enterprise is hard no matter what too (for different 'political' reasons, even if it has no budget).

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#156

Post by jrochkind1 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 4:01 PM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #94

clarkevans wrote: post #62

The author talks about this as a charitable (501c3) vs for-profit endeavor. I don't see any talk about using a cooperative structure. Cooperatives don't need IRS approval, since they operate commercially; any profits (and there won't be) are distributed proportionally to the users of the facility via 1099-DIV. Then, you run a membership drive to raise money. The membership then is used to select the board. Anyway, th…

Wouldn’t the members each be legally liable for anything that goes wrong?

It's a corporation. "limited liability" is part of the basic idea of a corporation, right?

The _board_ will be individually liable for gross negligence or criminal malfeasance, same as any corporate board. The members are no more liable than shareholders in any other corporation, ie virtually none. (Beyond losing their equity completely, of course).

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#157

Post by crawfordcomeaux » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #104

antt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even if I had the time, money and expertise I would never do something like that. Invite only spaces. New members have mentors who are responsible for them. Anyone can be expelled for any reason at any time. It's amazing how much the tone changes when someone is on the line for breaking a 10k machine and having to pay for everyone else using an equivalent machine commercially while they get it fixed.

> Invite only spaces. New members have mentors who are responsible for them. Anyone can be expelled for any reason at any time. Will still end up being a problem if the intention is to preserve the original vision. Mentors change over time, and 2nd and 3rd generation members (mentors of mentors etc) will form gangs and have their own ideas of how things should be.

I wonder what a culture centered around non-violent communication might lead to, since it was developed to address issues with gangs.

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#158

Post by Terretta » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #18

endomatrix wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who runs a brewery. They distribute a ridiculous amount of their product into stores around the world and have won many awards, yet they make very little margin from all that. He told me they make an overwhelming amount of money off of the tasting room attached to their physical brewery because the beer itself is effectively water in terms of cost so they make profit by not having to pay any middle me…

> It would be more accurate to ask: “How the F can anyone make any money when Starbucks is on every other street corner and has the advantages of scale they have.” Source and roast your own beans, don't overroast the beans, charge a premium over Starbucks for not producing crap coffee from overroasted beans. Starbucks does some impressive work with the candy flavors it adds to distract from their coffee, but...

Objections from sibling comments aside, roughly ‘everyone’ who has compared coffees for taste feels Starbucks is ‘overroasted’.

Curious then why Starbucks doesn’t adjust.

Is it something in the scale manufacturing, such as, more margin for error in the overroasted side, so taste will be the same signature burnt at every Starbucks in the world?

Is it that their market is former fast food coffee drinkers used to bland and burnt drips from McDonalds who will try a Starbucks, find it so ‘robust’ (ahem) as to be obvious, and that’s the end of the experimentation?

There has to be a data driven reason.

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#159

Post by coldtea » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #157

coldtea wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Invite only spaces. New members have mentors who are responsible for them. Anyone can be expelled for any reason at any time. Will still end up being a problem if the intention is to preserve the original vision. Mentors change over time, and 2nd and 3rd generation members (mentors of mentors etc) will form gangs and have their own ideas of how things should be.

I wonder what a culture centered around non-violent communication might lead to, since it was developed to address issues with gangs.

I don't think it will have much effect.

Non-violent communication practicing communities find their own ways to split into fractions -- for it's the clash of egos, ideas, aims, and private interests that create conflict, and those won't disappear by decision or fiat to avoid them.

Re: So You Want to Open a Small Press Bookstore/Artist-Run Space? A Cautionary Tale

#160

Post by crawfordcomeaux » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #77

l0b0 wrote: post #4

A recent experience from a hackerspace showed me how incredibly thankless people can be. After working really insanely hard to build an inclusive space with loads of features, every little hobby revolutionary in the community just shits all over the work and proclaims the people actually getting stuff done should just stop and leave it to them. Even if I had the time, money and expertise I would never do something li…

Thank you for sharing your experience. I've been chewing on an idea. Please bear with me. A friend's MBA thesis (WIP) is on the business model of evangelical churches. How the players build their flock, manage the brand, shape the culture, revenue, run their meetings, etc. Kinda eye opening. I'm even going to church again, a new one every few weeks. To gleen the strategies and techniques that have been hiding in plai…

I'm starting a home school center of sorts with my wife and looking into establishing it as a 501.d apostolic community because it's the only non-profit classification we found that doesn't require some kind of structure.

We prefer to play with decentralized voluntary forms of organization. Would love to get in touch with your friend, especially since we're trying to do things using a "give what you can that we need" business model.