Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity • Hacker News Board

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#151

Post by loceng » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

jacksnipe wrote: post #106

loceng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The private market will do a far better job fixing the status quo than the government or industrial complexes will. Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? You can make generalizations and assumptions otherwise, though that isn't very helpful. If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoc…

> If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoctrinated in a system that doesn't update their knowledge, keeps their knowledge in silos, and overall is inefficient and not getting people access to the most recent/best information/knowledge. This is crankery. Not all doctors are the best medical practitioners, but I will always trust a random med…

Your statement is equally a "crankery" if you've never had to deal with or experience the healthcare system. Unless you educate yourself on a topic to try to understand what's going on with yourself (unless it's something very simple), then you'll likely have as good of odds deciding if a doctor is good at what they do/figuring something out, as does a "health" startup. The systems of indoctrination are real and human error is a huge problem, likewise, doctors are selected primarily for their memorization skills and not critical thinking. - so if it is something more than simple, - good luck. They will listen to you for symptoms (assuming your self-awareness is adequate to notice everything important and your ability to share those symptoms is adequate) to then match up what might be going on, and then send you for testing, further specialist opinion, or whatever else. Technology will replace most of the processes in health - and that is good. Another example is using AI to analyze x-rays and MRIs for issues. Your family physician will depend on the report to decide if there's anything that needs to be treated - I have had more than one MRI reports where on second look by a different doctor they spot something that the original didn't.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#152

Post by MetalGuru » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #113

TeMPOraL wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in great places, eating amazing food, etc. It was honestly about as wonderful and stimulating of an experience as I've ever had. But were they really? The thing I'm no longer afraid to admit about myself - I don't enjoy such stuff. I don't derive much pleasure from views of nature, don't…

Yes they were really. It really was, literally, the thing in life I like to do the most. I live to travel and see new places, it's the favorite activity I ever engage in. I just disagree with this whole idea that there HAS to be some "missing hole" that phones fill. These apps are addictive, that's not really a secret they are designed to be by teams of brilliant people. It's possible that many heroin addicts have "h…

It's possible that many heroin addicts have "holes" in their life that they fill, but it's also pretty much a certainty that if you take a random person and unwittingly feed them heroin for awhile telling them it's harmless, they're going to have withdrawal symptoms if they stop.

What point are you even making here? You know there's a difference between physical dependence and addiction, right? Someone who isn't a heroin addict can easily stop taking it if they are weaned off. And heroin addicts relapse all the time after physical withdrawals have subsided.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#153

Post by loceng » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

bendoernberg wrote: post #92

loceng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The private market will do a far better job fixing the status quo than the government or industrial complexes will. Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? You can make generalizations and assumptions otherwise, though that isn't very helpful. If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoc…

What about the last 15 years leads you to believe that we can rely on startup founders to care about safety and ethics?

I can only imagine there are a lot of health tech companies we could find/reference who have received VC money, and who haven't hurt anyone - who are aware of the ethics and are good people. Of course there will be people who are naive, perhaps the "mercenary" type who see an opportunity, get money, and try to push for growth and marketshare without caring about health and safety first; Theranos seems to be one of these situations.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#154

Post by CPLX » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

MetalGuru wrote: post #152

CPLX wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they were really. It really was, literally, the thing in life I like to do the most. I live to travel and see new places, it's the favorite activity I ever engage in. I just disagree with this whole idea that there HAS to be some "missing hole" that phones fill. These apps are addictive, that's not really a secret they are designed to be by teams of brilliant people. It's possible that many heroin addicts have "h…

It's possible that many heroin addicts have "holes" in their life that they fill, but it's also pretty much a certainty that if you take a random person and unwittingly feed them heroin for awhile telling them it's harmless, they're going to have withdrawal symptoms if they stop. What point are you even making here? You know there's a difference between physical dependence and addiction, right? Someone who isn't a he…

> Someone who isn't a heroin addict can easily stop taking it if they are weaned off.

That's a bit dubious as a blanket statement. Perhaps you're creating a distinction without a difference?

My point pretty much sums to "addictive things are addictive"

Yes, addiction is more nuanced than that, some people are exposed to addictive things and don't get hooked.

But it seems like people in this thread are trying to advance this idea:

addiction = addictive thing + preexisting problem

Therefore, the solution is to get rid of that preexisting problem and voila, addiction is fixed.

I'm not sure I buy that. I'm sticking with the idea that certain substances, or technologies, are inherently likely to create habits and dependency in most humans who are exposed to them.

I count social media and heroin in that category.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#155

Post by loceng » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

rhcom2 wrote: post #97

loceng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The private market will do a far better job fixing the status quo than the government or industrial complexes will. Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? You can make generalizations and assumptions otherwise, though that isn't very helpful. If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoc…

> Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? I assume the exact opposite of nearly every startup.

Good - as you and everyone should - however, in the context of a health startup, and if the startup wants to have a long existence, they're not going to last very long if they're hurting people? I didn't mean to imply to blindly trust, like you shouldn't blindly trust any doctor you see.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#156

Post by loceng » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #98

loceng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The private market will do a far better job fixing the status quo than the government or industrial complexes will. Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? You can make generalizations and assumptions otherwise, though that isn't very helpful. If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoc…

You first argue that the free market is suited to solve these problems, then criticize the health-care industry for problems caused by its competitive nature. I want to address your point here, but I have no idea what it is.

There's an educational complex (including for/with medicine-healthcare), a manufacturing line of people's education towards "higher education." I am not saying this is inherently bad, however it has allowed indoctrination and stagnancy in practices to take hold in some areas - and which other means of education haven't caught up (via the private/"free" market) to counter-balance this for the mainstream masses to use and benefit from; programming has easily become a decentralized task with platforms like Codecademy, as one example.

There is also a difference between healthcare in countries like Canada vs. the US, where you can compare how "free market" the different systems are - see where more innovation has occurred or stagnated due to policy or other.

My point is that it's dangerous to blindly trust professionals - professional titles that were/are created and maintained through systems that include indoctrination - and just because they have a degree in something doesn't mean you should trust them (on a simpler level, just because someone has their driver's license - doesn't mean you should assume or trust they're a good driver). And obviously I'm not relating this type or level of trust to say someone who's gone through schooling who's a brain surgeon, to trusting someone else who just claims to be a brain surgeon but has no references or experience.

The problem with indoctrination is there is new knowledge and tools being developed every year, however that knowledge is not distributing - it takes far too long, in part, because of indoctrination.

There's indoctrination within individual organizations/companies as well, with like Theranos, where the VCs and controllers must not have understood the science themselves - or had trusted parties they could refer to outside of the company - and so it could grow to the scale it did.

The free market can counter these complexes, it's just not going to be a simple endeavour, it will be complex. And just because the free market can solve these issues, doesn't mean there shouldn't be societal changes and rules enacted, and doesn't mean that this same free market and say health-care industry can't be part of creating problems that then need to be addressed.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#157

Post by kopo » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

mbrock wrote: post #24

beaconstudios wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addiction seems to fill emotional voids like unresolved trauma, depression, ennui, unfulfilled ambition and so on. I think much like a bad habit, an addiction needs to be replaced by something else that fills the gap but is positive instead (for example exercise, working, learning, or sports) otherwise the gap is still there and will exert continued pressure to return to the addiction. That or (where possible) removi…

The Buddhist perspective seems to be that we suffer from a general addiction ("craving"). Meditation is supposed to shine a light on that. Since few people ever just sit down without entertainment or work, the meditation posture becomes a way to notice (and subdue) one's constant tendency to reach for something to enjoy or accomplish. This craving comes as part of "attachment", the way our minds are hooked up into al…

Buddhist thinking does give people narratives/rituals/methods to detach, that are without doubt of great value in today's hyperconnected world. And hyper connection does make us all vulnerable indeed.

But on the other end of the spectrum, Sugata Mitra, the educator, likes to say humanity has just uncovered the ability to murmurate like starlings, thanks to the hyperconnectivity the internet enable. It's still early days and pretty chaotic and mad, but just like a crowd has some magical self organizing ability to synchronize their clapping, who knows whether this hyper connectivity is on the verge of producing the same. I'd like to think we will get there, and are just going through a temporary bumping into each other phase. The talk for anyone interested - https://youtu.be/upg8LlJZtas?t=3567

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#158

Post by Avamander » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

ddtaylor wrote: post #60

Having worked on a product for 3 years that attempts to target this market I can tell you the sad reality, is that nobody really cares. Sure, there are clickbait headlines and companies/parents will feign interest, but when it comes to actually paying for a product or making any tangible change to usage habits, our numbers prove that nobody even tries. For full disclosure our product turns the Internet off until they…

I've been one of those people who have had the unfortunate luck to have a computer with parental- or time controls. It pretty much only shifted my screen usage to other devices e.g. TV and got me into cybersec because I wanted a way around those restrictions.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#159

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #131

wccrawford wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a gamer and about as attached to tech as you can be without actually having mental issues over it. My wife and I recently bought a house and I've been finding that I'd rather spend time fixing it up than playing games or doing other stuff with electronics much of the time. That doesn't mean that I've quit wholesale, though. I eventually get physically or mentally tired and want to just relax, and it's back to the…

actually improving our house has proven even more enjoyable Plus you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. That was what completely killed my interest in any amount of game grind- it hit me mid-game that if I spent that time grinding my actual corporeal self, I'd have something to show for it after. I've since improved my AeT mile pace (your "all-day" level) from around 15:00 to 10:00ish. (My dream/goal is to get to…

This is exactly my experience.

It probably helped that I did just enough game design to be acutely aware of even less-obvious time sink mechanisms, but I don't think it was an essential feature of what changed. Even simple puzzle games and other things that aren't manipulative started to pale in the face of the realization that "hey, I could go fix a broken shelf or read a book or exercise and get a lasting benefit".

It's not a sense of duty or anything else people would describe as "not being lazy", doing something fruitful just started feeling better. I still play games, and I'm happy with that, but the set of games has shrunk to things with ongoing interest and no grind, and the timing to stretches where I'm tired, stuck (e.g. at an airport), or playing with friends.

I don't doubt that addictiveness is a real factor, but I think lots of horror stories about gaming and tech addiction grab the wrong end of the stick. I've seen a half dozen people take "young men now work fewer hours, and game for a similar number more hours" and say "obviously, games destroyed their will to work!" Meanwhile, half my friends have gamed heavily when they had crap jobs, short-term rented apartments, etc, and then stopped as soon as they got bored and found opportunities for lasting improvements. Games are a fantastic way to kill a lot of time comfortably, but that doesn't mean they override all our other impulses.

Re: Solving Tech Addiction Is an Underappreciated Market Opportunity

#160

Post by loceng » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

ramphastidae wrote: post #99

loceng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The private market will do a far better job fixing the status quo than the government or industrial complexes will. Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? You can make generalizations and assumptions otherwise, though that isn't very helpful. If you've ever had the displeasure to experience the healthcare system, you'd learn too that "professionals" are indoc…

> Some "random guy that's making a startup" presumably would do things to be safe, and ethical, no? “They ‘trust me.’ Dumb fucks.”

In context I was speaking of health-related companies, that generally are scrutinized more - you can't create a medication and just start giving it to everyone, and you can't claim a medicine does something it hasn't been proven to do in studies, etc.

And once again, Facebook et al, ties into health as social is health. Facebook did some experiments/research specifically to see the impact of showing more positive or more negative posts to people, on a large scale, and without people expressly knowing or asking to participate. They should have gotten into huge trouble for this. How would you prevent this otherwise than having good whistler-blower laws, along with substantial rewards for doing so? Is the best option have someone else notice the problems and develop competition that is a better solution? It's difficult of course to compete with things like network effect and economies of scale, so then it will take more effort, more ambition, more passion, and perhaps more resources and time to reach the same scale - if that scale is even healthy.