Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#151

Post by meguest » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

s0rce wrote: post #129

mrguyorama wrote: post #73

As an idealist I'm glad to see the world transition away from fossil fuels in any capacity. As a "Car Guy" however, there is a small sadness that I won't really get to experience much of the internal combustion engine. I feel like I was born a decade too late and a lot too poor. Similar to some techies who feel the missed the early internet.

While few people still use horses for transportation there are many people who still have horses as a hobby and they are readily available with many places to take them. I suspect internal combustion cars will remain in a similiar hobby niche. There will be mechanics, race tracks, drag strips, etc for a while.

Except that people can still breed horses which keeps the cost of horse riding reasonable.

In contrast it will no longer be legal to manufacture and sell ICE cars, and so the price of these cars will go up as demand outgrows supply, making it financially unattainable for all but the rich.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#152

Post by ciconia » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

> Switching from a 10yr old ICE hatchback to a new one can easily save you $500 pa. Going from a new "efficient" ICE to an electric will save you a fraction of that.

Not true. From personal experience driving an electric costs one fifth the cost of fuel per km. That's an enormous saving.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#153

Post by m3at » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

It's a step forward. However I'm surprised that the focus is still on individual cars, construction of an ev is still quite polluting.

I expected to see suggestions about increase in public transportation coverage and frequency to compensate, or maybe steps towards self-driven collective fleets (2030 seems ambitious).

I don't know Denmark, are public transportation already well developed? Or am I not cynical enough and it's just an economically driven decision?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#154

Post by xyproto » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

This is a solid move. Better air quality and smaller chance of natural disasters benefits us all.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#155

Post by walshemj » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

yholio wrote: post #150

netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

> I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. Carbon taxing works well when it's applied - but it's very hard to create the political consensus to impose it. For example, the high cost of fuel in Europe has driven cars to an average MPG equivalent of 45 versus the average of 33 in US. That's nothing to sneeze at, it's 40% more for a given am…

Don't forget US Gallons are smaller than "proper" imperial ones

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#156

Post by walshemj » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #98

NickM wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. I'm curious, do you think the whole idea of a market-based solution is bad, or do you just think that actual real-world implementations have been lacking so far? I mean, it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. I think existing schemes have just be…

> it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. We could, for example, discourage smoking by putting a $500 tax on each pack of cigarettes. But at that point, you may as well stop pretending and ban it ou…

No it would massively increase smuggling / crime as Americas experiment with prohibition showed.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#157

Post by nielsbot » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #149

daveFNbuck wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the future that governments are trying to avoid by subsidizing electric cars and/or restricting gasoline-powered cars.

There are some disadvantages of electric cars which may or may not be solvable.

Sure, some ICE may remain around for special uses, but I guess the vast majority of people will be fine w an electric car. (Especially in 2030)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#158

Post by floatrock » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

lsiunsuex wrote: post #102

floatrock wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the sadness? As a "Car Guy" I'm thrilled about electric! Instant torque and acceleration, way more responsive than ICE. Just the other month there was the story where an electric shattered all the previous Pikes Peak records: https://www.teslarati.com/vw-id-r-electric-vehicle-pikes-pea... I mean, yeah, it doesn't have the same growl, but if you want raw performance, I'll take my spaceship whirl over rube goldberg…

the growl / sound / smell. The ability to modify, upgrade, "wrench on a car on the weekend" the ability to get beat on the track 1 weekend, drop a couple grand on new parts the next, then go back and beat them the following weekend. car shows and seeing a super charged mustang or camaro or twin turbos or something completely different someone came up with an idea for and built. the same way us programmers tinker and…

That's fair... the rube goldberg-like nature of ICE's means there's a lot more pieces you can swap in and out and continuously tweak, and a lot more opportunity for such after-market optimizations. There definitely is a kind of pride in building a machine that really is yours. I get that.

Do you think electrics just can't have such an aftermarket mod culture? I mean, yeah, it's not here now, but as the market matures...? ICE's have had custom ECU's that tweak timings for a while now, once the scale of batteries ramps up I'm sure people will find ways of discharging levels of power that the OEM considers warranty-voiding. You may not be able to put in a custom exhaust, but you'll certainly be able to move batteries around and experiment with different weight distributions. Instead of a custom intake manifold you can swap in front/rear motors with different HP's.

I mean, yeah, electric mod culture will probably more resemble edison's lab than a greasemonkey pit (and yeah, there's a danger that the Acme Motor won't work with the Emca Battery Pack because DMCA), but the opportunity to tweak your own machine will still be there I think, if maybe in a slightly different form and with different optimization parameters.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#159

Post by walshemj » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #85

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

Send yourself back in time to when less than 1% of the populace is using petrol cars to get around. In that timeframe of the early 1900's, it would've been incredibly hard to get around the rural areas as well, since they'd still be dominated by horse, foot, and perhaps bicycle traffic. Now, send yourself forward 100 years: it will be nearly impossible to use petrol-powered transport, and EV will be the standard. Say…

And people (peasants) lived and died in the same village there are good sides to increased mobility increased social mobility for one.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#160

Post by tyfon » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

anticensor wrote: post #140

vegardx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they do? In Norway you're going to have a hard time finding a petrol or diesel car that fits the government requirements. See §5: https://lovdata.no/dokument/SF/forskrift/2017-12-11-1995/§5

Why are buses exempt? Too cold for electric buses?

Not sure, probably the fact that they need to run all day without stopping to charge.

We have plenty of hybrid buses where I live though (in Norway).