Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#151

Post by sbuk » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

kimikelku wrote: post #146

the_solenoid wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you try to extrapolate your or my willingness to repair something to the overall market for the iphone, it would be an error. What are the tradeoffs for a user replaceable battery? (really, this is something we should all know if we are arguing FOR replaceable batteries - maybe it's not the best idea? I would wager 99%+ of sales go to people who never want to touch the innards of a phone. And anecdotally,…

I don't know how big the adoption is in the US for nokia "dumb phones", but in Europe they sell really good. The first thing you do when you take them out of the box is to put the battery in. Even if the person at the store does this for you, just by watching you can easly do it yourself. And since iphones are a huge role model, if they implement it others will follow along.

You're going to have to do better than "...but in Europe they sell really good."

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#152

Post by jrs95 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

Not only are Apple products difficult and expensive to repair, but if you've done something with your device that Apple doesn't approve of and voided the warranty they may even refuse to repair it for you. You're essentially not allowed to perform iMac Pro upgrades on your own -- this voids the warranty. Only authorized third parties can do this. It's kind of ridiculous given that the design of the machine ensures thermal issues long term...and it has to be partially disassembled just to be properly cleaned!

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#153

Post by lentil_soup » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

the_solenoid wrote: post #107

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

I think if you try to extrapolate your or my willingness to repair something to the overall market for the iphone, it would be an error. What are the tradeoffs for a user replaceable battery? (really, this is something we should all know if we are arguing FOR replaceable batteries - maybe it's not the best idea? I would wager 99%+ of sales go to people who never want to touch the innards of a phone. And anecdotally,…

You don't necessarily have to fix it yourself, though. You could get it serviced by a professional, just like people do with a washing machine or a fridge.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#154

Post by GeekyBear » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #57

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

To be fair, replacing battery/screen of Apple phones is easier and cheaper than some competing products. (phones are easier, iPads are harder) Some phones require heat gunning the screen as a start to open, then the battery is deep inside. Not with iPhones.

The worst of the worst being Microsoft's Surface line where iFixit says a battery replacement is simply impossible on the Surface Laptop.

>According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.”

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#155

Post by maxxxxx » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

And upgradeability! It's infuriating that the only way to get more memory into a MacBook is to buy a new one. And I don't believe Apple has any real technical reasons for the current state.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#156

Post by badpun » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

grzm wrote: post #101

badpun wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shows that sustainability is not even an afterthought. Everybody is ok with throwing away perfectly working devices (i.e. devices that were blazing fast just a couple years ago and now, with some crippling os updates, take 10 seconds to open a PDF) just because they're 3-5 years old. Let's see if Apple really does change their policy on this. For premium, very expensive phones, it would be reasonable for them to b…

Would you care to provide information about how Apple compares with others in the industry?

I don't have this information. However, IMO the current Apple's approach suits a vendor of $300 phones, not $1000+ ones. If Apple really wanted to be the technologic leader in this field, the gigantic markup and the billions of dollars that they make on phones should be funneled into engineering excellence (stability, security, performance, device longevity) and not gimmicks (face recognition). Unfortunately, it seems that the market does not demand engineering excellence even from premium products.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#157

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

the_solenoid wrote: post #107

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

I think if you try to extrapolate your or my willingness to repair something to the overall market for the iphone, it would be an error. What are the tradeoffs for a user replaceable battery? (really, this is something we should all know if we are arguing FOR replaceable batteries - maybe it's not the best idea? I would wager 99%+ of sales go to people who never want to touch the innards of a phone. And anecdotally,…

Repairable devices create a market for third-party device repair.

When something on my car breaks, I take it to a person that has no direct affiliation with the company that built my car, and it is always cheaper than taking it to the local repair shop that the manufacturer runs. Always.

I can also replace the parts in it with parts manufactured by yet another third party. Again, the parts of equivalent quality are nearly always cheaper than the original manufacturer's replacement parts. You can also spend more on premium aftermarket parts, if you like.

I don't even want to change the oil in my car. But I can pay someone who wants to service and repair cars all day, as their job, to do it for me, rather than sending the car back to the factory to have its engine replaced every time the oil gets dirty.

If I like tinkering with electronics, I could swap my own iPhone battery, and then I could also do that for other people. The problem is that Apple, Samsung, et al do not wish to share the repairs market, or allow repairs to eat into new sales, and therefore do not sell repair parts at reasonable prices or release part specifications so that third parties may produce repair parts of equivalent quality.

So the only way to get cheaper than an official first-party repair is to get crappy grey-market parts. Proprietary and patented connectors that don't get licensed on reasonable terms make things worse. This stuff doesn't need to be repaired by everyone, but it needs to be repairable by someone that isn't beholden to the original manufacturer. Repairability is the consumer check on planned obsolescence.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#158

Post by IBM » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #144

To me it sounds like Apple wants to be "seen" as building products that last as long as possible to justify the cost of the product. They want you to justify the buy it for life cost, because they want you to believe the marketing that it will last longer than competitors, even while laptop keyboards fail early, the repair process costs over $800, the screens on laptops look like someone sprayed brake cleaner all ove…

You don't have to believe Apple. All you need to do is look at the secondary market and see how prices for used devices hold up and see that it's true.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#159

Post by mailslot » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

My phone with a replaceable battery... every time I’d drop it or throw it on my bed, the back pops off and battery flies out. It also made things quite a bit thicker for this feature I never used, except to put the battery back in.

I’d argue that the ability to solder is still repairability, it just requires the service tech to have soldering skills. It’s not like there’s actual restrictions preventing it.

My clothes drier is repairable, but requires electrical skills. Phones are more complicated now. It stands to reason that they’re more complicated to repair.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#160

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #127

rimliu wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everybody is ok with throwing away > perfectly working devices People do that? All the iPhones I ever owned were passed on to someone. The oldest are not in the useable state right now I guess, but I hope they were given for recycling not just thrown away.

I don't know about throwing away, but I certainly know several people who have a drawer full of old smartphones they're never going to use again.

You might encourage them to reach out to a domestic violence shelter or something. Plenty of folks would be ecstatic to have an old smartphone.