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Lerna relicences to protest ICE

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Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#151

Post by kika »

onion2k wrote: post #146
kika wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linkedin doesn't put children in cages, to the best of my knowledge. (I just randomly chose one company from the list). This list is random. There are companies which do business with federal government, some of them with ICE and law enforcement agencies. I'm paying federal income tax in the US and as every other citizen or LPR or even H1B visa holder fund ICE. I'm much more complicit in "putting children in cages" t…

Complying with the law by paying taxes is less wrong than making a conscious choice to work for a company that provides services to ICE. You've been 'coerced' in to paying for ICE. LinkedIn haven't been coerced in to working with them.

You are saying that a company(!) can make a conscious(!) choice. That’s... well, a little bit too much.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#152

Post by onion2k »

kika wrote: post #151
onion2k wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complying with the law by paying taxes is less wrong than making a conscious choice to work for a company that provides services to ICE. You've been 'coerced' in to paying for ICE. LinkedIn haven't been coerced in to working with them.

You are saying that a company(!) can make a conscious(!) choice. That’s... well, a little bit too much.

"" is pretty much always a shorthand for "the people who choose to work for ".

Next time you read something and think "The literal interpretation of this is ridiculous!", try to remember the Principle of Charity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#153

Post by nameiscubanpete »

exogen wrote: post #32
burfog wrote: post #11

Well, this can't be in Debian or OpenBSD. I like OpenBSD maintainer Theo de Raadt's take on the matter. He allows usage in baby mulching machines and usage for dropping atomic bombs on Australia: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Theo_de_Raadt

And? So what? OSI approved licenses are particular ends to particular means. They are not the only ends to the only means. Theo de Raadt's take isn't automatically morally righteous. Honestly, it just sounds like a nineteen year old libertarian thinking "a-ha! everyone should just be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others! it's so simple, we've figured it all out!" Some p…

Check out Stallmans argument. He ends up at the same place as Theo, but goes into the why's:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freed...

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#154

Post by Benjamin_Dobell »

vsl wrote: post #150
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a MIT issue, it's a copyright issue. They're distributing the original contributions under the new license without honouring the terms of the original license. The software isn't now MIT+additional terms, it's MIT and MIT+additional terms. Meaning they need to continue to honour the MIT license for all exisiting contributions, just the same way as we need to when we use MIT licensed software. Namely, printin…

No. They are (well, briefly were) distributing it under new terms, which meet all their obligations under the plain MIT terms . You fundamentally misunderstand how licensing of copyrighted work works. Read the text of the MIT license and observe how the new terms don't contradict them. This is specifically the purpose of the MIT license - to allow incorporation into more restrictively licensed works. They don't own c…

> You fundamentally misunderstand how licensing of copyrighted work works.

That's quite the accusation.

I'm not going to repeat myself further. I suggest you read my existing comments regarding this matter, in particular https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17869267

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#155

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

mbo wrote: post #96
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #30

Slightly off-topic, but: anyone know where I can find a solid debate / discussion on the political issues raised by illegal immigration in the U.S.? My own views lean pretty strongly towards one end of the spectrum, and I simply can't understand why people would hold the opposite views. So I suspect I'm missing something.

If your views skew right perhaps checking out a liberal podcast like Pod Save America, or a leftist podcast Chapo Trap House or Citations Needed. If they skew left, Crowder, Shapiro, Jones or Limbaugh ought to do it. Like, these won't be "solid debate and discussion" but you'll definitely work out why people hold opposite views quickly.

Shapiro is doing great work with his Sunday Special, where he sits down with someone and they just talk about certain problems. His regular show sometimes panders a bit too much instead of focusing on making logical arguments in favor or against certain things. Even though I disagree with him on certain things, I think it's healthy to get exposed to a wide range of ideas.

Crowder is a mixed bag for me. I'd say he's a bit of parallel to John Oliver at times. You can't take everything that they say completely seriously. I'm a big fan of his "Change My Mind" series, where he goes out to have discussions with people and he puts em up unedited. Although the quality can fluctuate a lot based on how familiarized each person is with the issue being discussed.

I'd also add Joe Rogan's podcast to the list. He's very good at talking things through with people, trying to understand why they think a certain way. It's like a journey of exploration. It never gives me a vibe of someone trying to shove down a specific political agenda down my throat. It's also very long and unedited, so they have time to really dive into complex issues and you know that the other person's views aren't being misrepresented.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#156

Post by hippich »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #57
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #30

Slightly off-topic, but: anyone know where I can find a solid debate / discussion on the political issues raised by illegal immigration in the U.S.? My own views lean pretty strongly towards one end of the spectrum, and I simply can't understand why people would hold the opposite views. So I suspect I'm missing something.

I don't know a good resource but I think it largely comes down to how you see someone who commits a crime or breaks a rule. People on the right tend to see everyone as capable of following all the rules. To break them is a clear choice which has consequences. People who break the law or rules suffer from a character flaw. If a lot of people are breaking the law or a rule then there is some moral breakdown in society…

I think what you described are sides of authoritarianism and libertarianism, not right and left. From my observation, both left and right are trying to enforce something with laws, but things they want to enforce are different. These two spectrums are orthogonal imho (i.e. you can have authoritarian right and libertarian left)

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#157

Post by kika »

onion2k wrote: post #152
kika wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are saying that a company(!) can make a conscious(!) choice. That’s... well, a little bit too much.

" " is pretty much always a shorthand for "the people who choose to work for ". Next time you read something and think "The literal interpretation of this is ridiculous!", try to remember the Principle of Charity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

okay. so people who are citizens of the country are coerced to pay taxes and can not escape, but people who work for are not coerced to do their jobs. how so?

if you want to make an argument about consciousness then i can tell you that i absolutely consciously chose US as a country to live in, at the age of 41.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#158

Post by DubiousPusher »

hippich wrote: post #156
DubiousPusher wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know a good resource but I think it largely comes down to how you see someone who commits a crime or breaks a rule. People on the right tend to see everyone as capable of following all the rules. To break them is a clear choice which has consequences. People who break the law or rules suffer from a character flaw. If a lot of people are breaking the law or a rule then there is some moral breakdown in society…

I think what you described are sides of authoritarianism and libertarianism, not right and left. From my observation, both left and right are trying to enforce something with laws, but things they want to enforce are different. These two spectrums are orthogonal imho (i.e. you can have authoritarian right and libertarian left)

I'm a big fan of the political compass model. I think it does a great job of creating enough space to lay out most people's political values. But regarding immigration and law enforcement, at least right now, the right in America tend to be pretty authoritarian while the left tend to be fairly libertarian.

Of course that flips when you jump to the issue of pursing white collar crimes and regulatory violations.

BTW, in this context I'm using 'right' to mean the group of people that largely votes Republican and 'left' to mean the group of people that largely votes Democrat.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#159

Post by hippich »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #158
hippich wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you described are sides of authoritarianism and libertarianism, not right and left. From my observation, both left and right are trying to enforce something with laws, but things they want to enforce are different. These two spectrums are orthogonal imho (i.e. you can have authoritarian right and libertarian left)

I'm a big fan of the political compass model. I think it does a great job of creating enough space to lay out most people's political values. But regarding immigration and law enforcement, at least right now, the right in America tend to be pretty authoritarian while the left tend to be fairly libertarian. Of course that flips when you jump to the issue of pursing white collar crimes and regulatory violations. BTW, i…

I can't see how the left being libertarian on immigration while at the same time voting for large social welfare programs can work. you can have only one: no borders or social welfare. You can't have both at the same time (until globalization will even out income in the whole world)

Perhaps we could go 100% libertarian first (no borders, no taxes) and after a while go 100% social (not sure how globe-wide social welfare can work tho)

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#160

Post by DubiousPusher »

hippich wrote: post #159
DubiousPusher wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a big fan of the political compass model. I think it does a great job of creating enough space to lay out most people's political values. But regarding immigration and law enforcement, at least right now, the right in America tend to be pretty authoritarian while the left tend to be fairly libertarian. Of course that flips when you jump to the issue of pursing white collar crimes and regulatory violations. BTW, i…

I can't see how the left being libertarian on immigration while at the same time voting for large social welfare programs can work. you can have only one: no borders or social welfare. You can't have both at the same time (until globalization will even out income in the whole world) Perhaps we could go 100% libertarian first (no borders, no taxes) and after a while go 100% social (not sure how globe-wide social welfa…

I'm not sure. That's a huge issue which I'm woefully under-qualified to have a strong opinion on. I do know that Switzerland has generous social programs for citizens but allows people to live and work there without full citizenship. Which is one partial solution. Though they now have the pretty ridiculous problem of having 3rd generation Swiss immigrants who aren't Swiss citizens.

Problems of immigration and citizenship go all the way back to republican Rome. The answers are crappy and few epspecially with several global humanitarian crises underway.

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