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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#151

Post by andys627 »

bluejekyll wrote: post #19
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. I understand this perspective, but as a counter to this, if no one bikes in the US then this won't change. I ride all over San Francisco. In the last 18 years of me living here things have gotten better and better for the cyclist, but there are still many areas that can be improved. I encourage you to support local or…

Change will happen faster if the decision makers realize induced demand - building car capacity (supply) induces more demand of drivers... building safe bike infrastructure induces more people to ride.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#153

Post by ams6110 »

neivin wrote: post #109
antisthenes wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I don't get the economics of lime ebikes. You pay $6/hr to ride one, which, assuming a very generous average speed of 14.5mph (the maximum of the bike), is an end user cost of $0.41 per mile minimum. It costs me ~$0.35 per mile to drive a car. I also don't have to bother with any apps or worry about the battery being charged, both of which are inconveniences. Also, just to set the record straight, I own…

You completely ignored all the other costs of owning a car: insurance, parking, maintenance. You're paying much, much more than $0.35/mile my friend.

How do you know? Perhaps he has an old car that he maintains himself, parks in free lots, and only carries liability coverage so insurance is cheaper.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#154

Post by ebikelaw »

bluejekyll wrote: post #19
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. I understand this perspective, but as a counter to this, if no one bikes in the US then this won't change. I ride all over San Francisco. In the last 18 years of me living here things have gotten better and better for the cyclist, but there are still many areas that can be improved. I encourage you to support local or…

I've lived here for 20 years and I think you probably just have Stockholm Syndrome. The built environment is still trash and hasn't changed noticeably the entire time. There have been a few tiny marginal improvements, such as a handful of signals for bikes. Bike share I guess. Otherwise total stasis.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#155

Post by ebikelaw »

kazinator wrote: post #34
bunderbunder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

Note that in the USA, it's possible to see children in a playground wearing helmets.

That's something nobody should ever do, because the danger of being strangled is significant. https://helmets.org/playgrou.htm

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#156

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

watwut wrote: post #23
bunderbunder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

Helmet does not help in high speed crash with car and is not designed for it. It helps in small falls.

I generally agree, but I want to point out that there is a huge range of impact protection depending on the general shape (e.g. 'aero' vs 'skater' style), construction (hard shell downhill MTB helmet vs typical road helmet) and fit. I can't count the number of times I've seen a cyclist with a terribly ill-fitting, poorly positioned helmet. I've seen many completely exposed foreheads, thanks to too much rearward tilt, and mostly exposed skull bases thanks to the impractical aero/race-inspired design that's dominated the road market for decades.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#157

Post by bluejekyll »

ebikelaw wrote: post #154
bluejekyll wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. I understand this perspective, but as a counter to this, if no one bikes in the US then this won't change. I ride all over San Francisco. In the last 18 years of me living here things have gotten better and better for the cyclist, but there are still many areas that can be improved. I encourage you to support local or…

I've lived here for 20 years and I think you probably just have Stockholm Syndrome. The built environment is still trash and hasn't changed noticeably the entire time. There have been a few tiny marginal improvements, such as a handful of signals for bikes. Bike share I guess. Otherwise total stasis.

Which area of the city do you live in? I’ve seen numerous improvements to major commuter corridors over the years. Some examples:

- Valencia street being narrowed and bike lanes on both sides, improved protection is being worked on.

- protected lanes continue to be improved on Market, but it’s still not great.

- the wiggle through the lower haight is nearly a bike boulevard

- Ceasar Chavez, still not very safe, but traffic has been slowed down and bike lanes added on both sides.

- folsom street now has protected or very wide bike lanes to third street, and Howard now has wide bike lanes starting at 6th.

I mean yeah, it’s not amazing, but it is safer and is continuing to be improved. It will be a long time before we’re like Holland.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#158

Post by [deleted] »

neals wrote: post #26

It isn't all fun and games. I had to ride the bike to school for 5 years. Over in the neighbouring city. A 45 minute ride. Alone. Through wind, rain, wind and wind. And rain. That's also part of the culture, because it's safe and ok to send kids, 12 years old, on their own, in the dark over unlit forest roads. Through the wind. Also wind. Saves on bus fare. Which is also typically Dutch. I don't own a bike any more.

[deleted]

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#159

Post by MrFantastic »

AceyMan wrote: post #42
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

LA resident here for eleven years (coming from ATL which has its own horrible traffic and is worse by miles for bike commuting, fwiw). > I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. My not-so-pedantic comments to these facts are (a) LA is freaking HUGE (if ever fly into LAX at night, p…

Atlanta near Midtown has dramatically improved for biking. We also have Bird scooters.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#160

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #87
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

I’ve stopped peaking over my shoulders ever since I’ve gotten a car with a bunch of sensors and cameras. Now it seems like it is more dangerous to take the time to look back and instead just rely on the fairly reliable sensor indicator in the side review mirrors. It’s not even like you can do both, unfortunately, since you either look here or there. I wonder how much driving will change with technology before we get…

I’ve stopped peaking over my shoulders ever since I’ve gotten a car with a bunch of sensors and cameras.

When I ride in newer cars, I'm always surprised at how poor the outward visibility is. Front pillars have gotten enormous in order to house airbags, and the rear pillars seem to always be absurdly think with tiny, useless corner windows (for crush/rollover strength?). It's no wonder that you're more dependent on technology.

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