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My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

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Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#151

Post by gumby »

dboon wrote: post #127
golergka wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm one of those people. Been in game development 11 years, now a lead developer for a project that I would buy and play as a gamer, doing exactly what I was dreaming of doing when I was around 7 years old. It's very grueling emotionally and takes a great toll, but I have no other big goals in life right now other than to do this right.

Hi! I'm graduating college soon. My favorite hobby is engine development, and I'd love to try out the field -- may I ask how you broke into the industry?

Some of my close friends work in game development and love it. But I will warn you also that for the majority of people it's not a great industry to work in: hyper-hierarchical, personally demanding, with many many hostile insecure folks. Which I find super weird because some of the nicest folks I know work in...game development!

I think what I mean to say is: if you get into it and it sucks, don't be surprised. But instead of being discouraged jump to somewhere else in the industry. You may be able to find your happy place full of nice people and fun projects (but still hard work!). And if you never do find that place and eventually move on to something else, don't take it as a personal failure.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#152

Post by mothsonasloth »

fastball wrote: post #122
sokoloff wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London salaries are surprisingly low to this US-based employer with employees in a handful of cities around the world. I was expecting “NYC salaries” and instead found more like “Atlanta salaries” which I can’t figure out how the economics works for London-based employees. Given that, lots of US employers with remote work available will be able to hit London salary level I think.

London is an amazing city. I don't think there is much more to it than that. People just enjoy living there even if it doesn't make as much sense economically.

I disagree.

The pollution, increase in knife and gang crime, work yourself to death culture and overcrowding due to immigration.

This makes London not feasible for the long term. If you look at statistics of immigration / emigration from London by age. Anyone below 30 is net migration, whilst above 30 its the opposite.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#153

Post by mothsonasloth »

walshemj wrote: post #120
mothsonasloth wrote: post #78

I will be trying remote working soon, this whole culture of co-location is the reason you have SF, London, NY etc. I moved away from London because its economically and socially tough. With a remote job I will be able to make a London salary but live wherever I like, enjoy the outdoors and live life how I see fit. SF, Madrid, Berlin, NY are sparkly places where a lot of people (bar the lucky few) end up trapped.

Why do you think "co-location" is bad? its proven to be the best way to work.

Well after 6 years of co-location, im willing to try something else.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#154

Post by mmt »

glangdale wrote: post #57
themoat wrote: post #2

I know the author wised up and moved on, but I would rather work construction for the rest of my life than be a programmer and live like this. I worked for a startup for a couple of years that really got it right. The CTO really wanted a certain lead developer as his first hire (they had previously worked together) and the lead dev said (paraphrased, of course) "Nope. Not interested in working more than 40 hours per…

This is a good way to work. I am hugely skeptical about places that have a culture of crazy long work weeks from a pure productivity standpoint. When we 'rebooted' Sensory Networks (our regex company a while back) we held to a 'regular hours only' policy and I think we did pretty well with it. We did get to a decent acquisition (esp. for a niche product) and importantly we were able to keep progressing the product te…

> will require more 60-70 hour work weeks to pay back.

Except if 60-70 hour workweeks created the debt in the first place, subsequent ones can be expected to create even more, rather than (net) paying any back.

Perhaps a better remedy would be 1.5x-1.75x as many 40 hour workweeks. If so, that could easily be more years than the average engineer's tenure, which can add its own challenge.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#155

Post by walshemj »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #153
walshemj wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think "co-location" is bad? its proven to be the best way to work.

Well after 6 years of co-location, im willing to try something else.

OK that's your opinion but do you have any evidence? Steve McConnell certainly comes down on the side of teams collocated with the customer.

And certainly my experience winter of 94 with another developer using DSDM (Agile) an collocated with the customer in Scotland delivering in a month what another remote team quotes 2 years for makes me agree with his thesis.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#156

Post by mmt »

AndyNemmity wrote: post #84
a_imho wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so hard about saying no to overtime? Just turn off the computer and go home.

If you are the sole person responsible for the main feature of a startup, and it isn't completed, you know that the only thing you can do is put every hour you have into it to try and make it work. That is what is so hard.

> you know that the only thing you can do is put every hour you have into it to try and make it work

This, of course, illustrates, why it's difficult: when one knows something that happens to be false.

That's why it's important to have these kinds of discussions here, even they appear to surface concepts that may seem obvious to some people. To other people, it's important to read/hear that perspective, lest "tunnel vision" or an "echo chamber" takes hold.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#157

Post by s0rce »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #152
fastball wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London is an amazing city. I don't think there is much more to it than that. People just enjoy living there even if it doesn't make as much sense economically.

I disagree. The pollution, increase in knife and gang crime, work yourself to death culture and overcrowding due to immigration. This makes London not feasible for the long term. If you look at statistics of immigration / emigration from London by age. Anyone below 30 is net migration, whilst above 30 its the opposite.

People say the exact same things about the bay area.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#158

Post by s0rce »

dhnsmakala wrote: post #33

I call bushit on this story. This article is greatly exaggerated to grab your attention. $1.4k for a closet in an Airbnb with 13 people, where you don't get a key and have to sneak in? Heh. I have found a large room in a newer complex through a company pairing roommates in just a few days. It was $1800. Heck, you could pay $1k for a room in Berkely or Oakland and commute in by Bart.

Yah, this makes no sense. You can get a private room in a house in Menlo Park for $1500-1800. Probably similar or cheaper in SF.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#159

Post by s0rce »

Apocryphon wrote: post #35
dhnsmakala wrote: post #33

I call bushit on this story. This article is greatly exaggerated to grab your attention. $1.4k for a closet in an Airbnb with 13 people, where you don't get a key and have to sneak in? Heh. I have found a large room in a newer complex through a company pairing roommates in just a few days. It was $1800. Heck, you could pay $1k for a room in Berkely or Oakland and commute in by Bart.

There are $1k rooms in Berkeley?

Yes

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/roo?max_price=1000

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#160

Post by mmt »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #133
DoritoChef wrote: post #9

Posts like these really continue drive home the message of "Silicon Valley is just a shell of what it used to be. Only go there for the sake of relocation or with a job offer in hand." There's nothing left for the dreamers or hopefuls in SV who have nothing to run on but just that--hopes and dreams. It just makes so much more sense to take a pay cut and swing for the fences in Atlanta, Houston, Austin, or Phoenix. He…

The weather in Atlanta, Houston, Austin, and Phoenix is brutally hot and/or humid and shows no sign of getting a cooler average. It's difficult to do stuff outside when it's that hot, especially as you get older.

(True also for Los Angeles, though at least that has the Pacific Ocean)

This is the (not so?) subtle quality-of-life aspect that people seem to forget when mentioning other cities as alternatives.

The Bay Area isn't popular/expensive solely due to network effects. Climate and geography (nearness to ocean, mountains) make it comparitively more appealing than the alternatives, for a variety of ages and lifestyles.

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