Earlier quoted context omitted.
Saying 200ms flat reaction time is "human level" is really unfair. That is raw reaction time when a is human paying attention for a stimulus, like in a reaction time test. Lets look at casting a spell in a Dota. First I need to perceive my target. Then I need to move my mouse to the target, which is error prone. Then I need to press a button and click. Even for a human with extremely fast reaction time, this targetin…
Hm. I used to run an experiment at an Engineering Fair at school. Oscilloscope, random pulse, trigger button, time the reaction time. Some fast kids could get it down to the double-digits, even 20-30 ms, pressing that button after seeing the pulse. If I remember right.
OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
151–160 of 172 posts
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#152So three major differences between this and the last big match for OpenAI Five which explain the different result in favour of the Humans: 1) The Humans, Pain Gaming, is a professional team with players that regularly play and practice together and attend major tournaments. While they are the weakest team at this event and are arguably there only because of a regional qualifier system (they are from South America and…
I think it's totally disingenuous to call them the weakest team at the event. Two other teams performed worse in the group stage and one tied Pain's score, but still made it into the main event through sheer luck. Pain has won games against every single one of the strongest teams there.
If you follow pro Dota, you know a lot of these games hinge on how a team happens to be performing on a certain day. Just this past May, Pain played in one of the top Dota tournaments of the year with 9 other teams who also happen to be at The International with them now -- and Pain came in 3rd place, ahead of Fnatic, OG, and Mineski.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#153There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…
BUT!!
This is AI, so what OpenAI needs to improve on, if anything, may be the ability to tell this stuff directly to the AI so it could skip hours of play.
Also, maybe our view is too limited and the AI actually learns even better strategies from competitive self-play. Strategies our human way of improving would miss.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#154There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…
You may be missing the point here: it's AI, so it doesn't "think" in terms of strategies or tactics like you do, it just runs countless simulations, figures out what works in those, and then blindly applies that. So if the human opponents do things it has not been trained to cope with, they'll have a significant edge. Incidentally, this is pretty much what Kasparov did when playing Deep Blue, with some success: https…
For the jargon, the Liquipedia glossary might be helpful: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Glossary
Dota is a 5v5 game where each player controls a single hero unit. The playing field has three paths that connect the opposing bases, and an endless source of dumb computer-controlled units march along these paths to try to destroy the opposing base (in a perpetual stalemate). The objective of the game is to power up your hero units (by defeating enemy heroes and computer-controlled units) until you have an overwhelming advantage, by which point you can mount an attack on the enemy base.
> 1. terrible at warding and dewarding
Dota has a fog-of-war system, inherited from its real-time-strategy roots. There are two main game mechanics that interact with the fog of wr: wards and smokes. Wards are stationary units that can be placed at a spot on the map to provide vision around them. Smokes are a consumable resource that can temporarily make your team invisible, so you can sneak through your opponent's wards undetected.
In regular Dota play, map vision is highly valued, to the point that there is a hardcoded limit on how many wards and smokes each team is allowed to use.
For all intents and purposes, OpenAI seemed to have no idea what it was doing with these mechanics. It placed wards at low-value places (instead of high value map intersections), and often wasted them by placing multiple wards on the same spot.
> are terrible at using spell spam to farm.
Farm in Dota means collecting resources to power up your hero by defeating dumb computer-controlled units (as opposed to by defeating the enemy heroes). The slang is because it is a relatively peaceful and patient way of acummulating resources. Farming is all about establishing control of a region of the map so that your team can defeat the computer controlled units there but your opponents can't.
OpenAI showed that it was very good at using their heroes' abilities to fight enemy heroes head on, but it wasn't as good at playing the "economic game" and using their spells to accumulate resources when there was no fighting going on.
> don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke
A handful of spells in Dota "jump" to nearby enemies after the first one, like a hot potato. Usually you want t ouse them when multiple enemies are next to each other but OpenAI was more willing to use these spells een when they didn't give an extra bounce.
I think that this might be a side effect of the AI's self-play. OpenAI has superhuman reaction times and is very good at positioning and moving around to avoid getting hit by those additional "jumps", so it wouldn't value them very highly.
> Bad at non-nuky/long running ultimates
Some hero abilities in Dota can be used very often (once every few seconds) while others have a longer cooldown time (once every 2 or 3 minutes).
In regular Dota play, you only want to use these major spells when contesting an important objective against your enemy, because if you "waste" them, the enemy team can take advantage of the time when your heroes aren't at their full strength.
OpenAI seemed to do a bad job at this kind of long term thinking. It would use some of its powerful abilities against computer-controlled units and then not have them available for an important fight vs the humans.
> Bad at judging Roshan respawn.
Roshan is a powerful computer-controlled monster that appears at the middle of the map. It takes a team effort to defeat, but the team that does so receives a very high reward.
After Roshan is defeated he shows up again after 8 to 11 minutes. Good players know that they can ignore Roshan for these first 8 minutes but that after that they must pay close attention to the area around its cave to prevent the enemy team from sneaking there undetected and defeating Roshan uncontested. OpenAI didn't seem to have learned this timing behavior. They would constantly check if Roshan was present in his cave, even in times when it was mathematically impossible.
> Are bad at juking.
Juking is trying to "break your opponents ankles" when they are chasing you around the map, by exploiting the fog of war. Enemies can't see higher ground or behind trees, so you can use those opportunities to quickly change the direction you are running in an attempt to evade who is chasing you.
OpenAI seemed to do a bad job of timing these direction changes. Ideally you turn to move in a different direction as soon as you enter the fog of war, no sooner and no later.
> not good at prioritizing cores over supports
In the later portions of a typical Dota game, 3 of the five heroes in each team will be very strong at fighting (the cores) and 2 will be weaker (the supports). Usual strategy is that it is more important to prioritize defeating the strongest heroes in the enemy team. OpenAI was more willing to go for the weaker enemies first, but I am not sure that is a bad thing actually.
> terrible at dealing with split pushes.
The most direct way to attack the enemy base in Dota is to defeat the enemy team in a head on fight and use the window of time when they are incapacitated to attack the undefended base.
Split pushing is a strategy where you try to attack the base when you think the enemies are grouped up far away from it and can't defend it immediately. The humans successfully used this strategy to delay the game, by forcing the bots to abort their frontal assaults and retreat to defend their base.
> bad at properly utilizing buybacks.
In Dota, heroes are incapacitated for a brief time after they are defeated. In the later parts of the game it is around 1 or 2 minutes in the sidelines.
There is an option to spend some resources (sacrificing future strength) to immediately return your hero to action. This is a very high-risk high-reward play that needs to be timed appropriately to be worth the investment. The bots made some questionable plays around this game feature.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#155There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…
> 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many times lich used that spell as a poking spell.
I'm not convinced that their use of Chain Frost is necessarily bad. They are likely still used to their five man death ball strategy, where a single kill is often enough to secure a tower. In that case, using Chain Frost on a single hero may very well have better expected value with the guaranteed kill than waiting for an opportunity and potentially getting no kills, and even worse, pushing the game late where they cannot play effectively.
> 5. Bad at judging Roshan respawn.
This is technically true, but misleading. Humans determine this more accurately simply because we have been told the actual time range, but if you couldn't look it up, you would be bad at it too. You could try it in game, but imagine you weren't allowed to start a demo match, you were only allowed to do it in a live game. Furthermore, you have no access to patch notes, so you need to keep checking the Roshan pit in case they changed the respawn time. In fact, you don't even know that it respawns and then stays there. Maybe it only shows up for 30 seconds on every even game time minute, and disappears if it isn't attacked. Given the huge advantage that taking Roshan gets, maybe it is actually worth it to stick around there if you have no idea what the respawn rules are.
> 8. not good at prioritizing specific heroes in team fights (cores over supports, if both look equally chasable)
I didn't see this in the game.
> 9. terrible at dealing with split pushes. They prioritize defending their towers over everything. Also bad at split pushing, in general.
I didn't really see this in the game either. Axe was pushing, but what could they have really done about it? If they tried to wrap around and gank him, that would just split them up and leave them open to counter attack by the much stronger human team, particularly the Sniper.
In regards to the second point, in one of the caster games, the AI sacrificed Sven in order to secure the bottom T2 tower. Sounds like split pushing to me.
> 11. when they are behind, they simply don't have any coherent way of catching up other than taking huge team fights.
What would you suggest they should have done in this game then? It seemed to me like they didn't have very many options left at the end.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#156Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…
Saying 200ms flat reaction time is "human level" is really unfair. That is raw reaction time when a is human paying attention for a stimulus, like in a reaction time test. Lets look at casting a spell in a Dota. First I need to perceive my target. Then I need to move my mouse to the target, which is error prone. Then I need to press a button and click. Even for a human with extremely fast reaction time, this targetin…
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#157So three major differences between this and the last big match for OpenAI Five which explain the different result in favour of the Humans: 1) The Humans, Pain Gaming, is a professional team with players that regularly play and practice together and attend major tournaments. While they are the weakest team at this event and are arguably there only because of a regional qualifier system (they are from South America and…
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
I assume that the robots are god-level last-hitters and farmers. perfect farming efficiency is enough to beat 99% of human teams. most players struggle to get 50 last hits in the first phase of the game, nevermind actually get every single piece of eligible farm. edit: i would also expect that the robots are deny nazis, who severely crimp the farming of anyone who opposes them in the lane.
OpenAI is significantly better than most pro players in solo middle lane early on, when playing shadowfiend vs shadowfiend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zaJ58q9vuI&vl=en
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah. I agree. It was over the 200ms minimum but it was artificial. No human could reasonably perform that type of action as relilably. And that has nothing to do with learning performance.
You can queue abilities to instantly cast them after the previous one finishes, so it is actually quite reasonable for a human to perform that type of action quite reliably.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#160So three major differences between this and the last big match for OpenAI Five which explain the different result in favour of the Humans: 1) The Humans, Pain Gaming, is a professional team with players that regularly play and practice together and attend major tournaments. While they are the weakest team at this event and are arguably there only because of a regional qualifier system (they are from South America and…
> 1) The Humans, Pain Gaming, [...] are the weakest team at this event and are arguably there only because of a regional qualifier system... I think it's totally disingenuous to call them the weakest team at the event. Two other teams performed worse in the group stage and one tied Pain's score, but still made it into the main event through sheer luck. Pain has won games against every single one of the strongest team…
In that paragraph where you selectively quoted you removed the clause where I said: "...they are capable of taking games off some of the strongest teams due to their unpredictable and dynamic play", which is is no different to the point you are trying to make.
Fact is, they came last, they were lucky to attend given it was a surprise that their region was given a slot for the first time ever, but proved themselves to be a capable team from a region that is starting to get international exposure, and you are deliberately misrepresenting me.