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Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

professorwerner.org

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Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#151

It has been only 200 years since the industrial revolution and we have managed to completely waste the planet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene_extinction We are running out of topsoil, fresh water, fish, pollinators, oil... the oceans are becoming an acid mess full of plastic, species are going extinct, forests and the ecosystems they contain are disappearing. And all of this has been done in the name of a…

None of this is affected, solved or improved by changing to Bitcoin. Your comment is complete off topic.

The parent comment didn't mention Bitcoin.

Please read the hacker news guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Everyone here is trying to take a short break and learn and talk about current events. It's a lot more fun when we're not all yelling at each other.

There are a couple which apply here:

> Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#152

Ugh. Yes, we need central banks, if for no other reason than that distributed systems are hard. Central banking helps prevent things like double-spends and creating currency out of thin air. Yes, technically cryptocurrencies "solve" the same problem, but at 1000x the energy expenditure and with no guarantee of avoiding a 51% attack by a coordinated network of rogue actors. It's almost like cryptocurrency zealots don'…

Not all crypto attacks the same problem; they should not be all lumped together.

Bitcoin's transation rate and energy use are a big deal.

But Bitcoin does solve the problem of the central bank itself creating too much money, which has been an issue in the past and is generally recognized to be a big temptation on the part of governments in general.

I'm not saying it's going to replace any major currency, just that there is a goal Bitcoin is meeting not mentioned above.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#153
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most "cryptocurrency zealots" don't know shit about crypto or currencies.

Or math, computer science, finance, politics, government, sociology, scaling, economics or seemingly. Crypto zealots have truly drunk the kool aid and have shut off their critical thinking.

Let's try not to over-generalize a group of people. Crypto might be a fad, but that doesn't mean there are no intelligent, knowledgeable people in it.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#154
post #36

I zoned out at Section II ("The Central Banking Narrative Has Collapsed") because every single paper he cites is written by him (and in fact so are 18 of the 20 publications he cites in the entire article)

> because every single paper he cites is written by him

The bulk of the article is an elaborate straw man followed by cherry picked statistics.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#155
post #36

I zoned out at Section II ("The Central Banking Narrative Has Collapsed") because every single paper he cites is written by him (and in fact so are 18 of the 20 publications he cites in the entire article)

I also noticed that, and it raises concerns. However, the intro, the questioning of the fundamentals when faced with evidence that contradicts the assumptions, is long overdue. When interest rates entered negative territory, something deemed formally impossible a decade earlier, a huge alarm should have sounded in Economics. Instead, we got some after-the-fact explanations that are untestable, and continue applying t…

No economist believed that negative interest rates were formally (or informally for that matter) impossible. You might find arguments that real rates (nominal rate minus inflation) should never be negative, but in a deflationary environment nominal rates can go below zero without violating that.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#156

Ugh. Yes, we need central banks, if for no other reason than that distributed systems are hard. Central banking helps prevent things like double-spends and creating currency out of thin air. Yes, technically cryptocurrencies "solve" the same problem, but at 1000x the energy expenditure and with no guarantee of avoiding a 51% attack by a coordinated network of rogue actors. It's almost like cryptocurrency zealots don'…

> Ugh. Yes, we need central banks, if for no other reason than that distributed systems are hard.

I can't count how many people there are who assume that because the problem is too hard for them, they need the government to intervene.

> but at 1000x the energy expenditure and with no guarantee of avoiding a 51% attack by a coordinated network of rogue actors.

Was double-spending a major problem prior to 1917? No, because there were assets that couldn't be double spent to move around (cash) as well as a somewhat decentralized trust-based system between banks that didn't fail just because the government wasn't there to hold your hand. We don't need cryptocurrencies for decentralized banking transactions, but they could definitely optimize the system and bridge the gap for the modern world, where money moves to the other side of the world frequently (not v0 Bitcoin-based protocols like you are familiar with, but assets which use a combination of proof-of-stake and master nodes which prioritize reputation in the system over computational power -- Dash is one example, although not yet good enough for this purpose). I suspect the environmental/economic cost of maintaining such a network would be much less than physically moving cash or gold around for backbone transactions.

One somewhat useful (although still not without controversy) function central banks perform (and really, it's mostly the US Fed for most of the world's financial system) is indeed clearing bulk transactions between banks worldwide. However, the true value is the ability to reverse "mistakes" or theft -- for a VERY short time, we should note -- although this is also a negative if you are on your government's naughty list. Cryptocurrencies enable both more autonomy (the Saudi government wouldn't necessarily be able to freeze the assets of a dissenting citizen who is trying to escape, for example), and less ability to reverse mistakes, so I am torn on whether or not any existing cryptos would be ideal for this role, although I'm sure emerging cryptos/upgrades will continue to be better suited. In any case, it's kind of a tangent to the whole central bank discussion.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#157
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who loses? Mostly the holders of treasuries. In the United States, defaulting on Sovereign Debt would basically guarantee the death of social security. If you're in the USA, by far the best way you can insulate yourself against sovereign debt is by: 1) organizing your life's expenses so that you can retire (or at least continue to live) with $0.00 from social security. 2) Ensuring that you don't rely on any federal…

Why can’t these funds including the social security funds diversify into real assets ahead of a default?

So lets the the economy has $X trillion (nominal) of real assets. You privatize social securities $Y trillion assets with the stroke of a pen. You now have $(X+Y) trillion chasing the same real assets.

The rate of return on those assets will decline in proportion to the new money chasing them. On the margin, (and more so over time) new productive opportunities will occur as the cost of capital to business declines, but in the short run all you are doing is inflating a bubble.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#158

Ugh. Yes, we need central banks, if for no other reason than that distributed systems are hard. Central banking helps prevent things like double-spends and creating currency out of thin air. Yes, technically cryptocurrencies "solve" the same problem, but at 1000x the energy expenditure and with no guarantee of avoiding a 51% attack by a coordinated network of rogue actors. It's almost like cryptocurrency zealots don'…

Central banking doesn't prevent creation of currency out of thin air. It just ensures that only the governing body of the central bank can do it.

And the governing body of a central bank will likely have an agency problem. There is a significant incentive to capture some of the growth in the markets that use the currency via manipulation of the money supply. The market would prefer that nobody be in a position to capture that growth, because then everybody wins in an expansion, but then the downside is that everybody loses in a contraction. But then again, the market also prefers a currency with a stable value.

The fixed coin-creation schedule in Bitcoin was intended to remove any central authority for currency creation. But as it turns out, it's really hard to predict the demand for a currency that far into the future.

For a long time, the old standard, gold, was mined, refined, and coined at roughly the same rate as economic growth. The world economy grew by 2-3% per year, and the total gold supply grew by 2-3% per year. So gold was a very stable currency. It took large movements of metal, such as Mansa Musa going on Hajj, or the exploration and exploitation of the Americas, to push the markets out of tolerance.

Central banks have the capability to replicate that stability. But they do not. They skim off the top with monetary inflation that outpaces economic growth, to make currency that is held slowly lose its buying power, and prices slowly rise over time. The public justification is that currency that appreciates in value is spent less frequently, but that buying power has to go somewhere. It doesn't go to the people already holding currency. It goes to the one that creates the new money.

I'm not certain that cryptocurrencies have the ability to mint new coins at exactly the rate of economic growth and also distribute the new coins fairly. At the least, spends within the system could be gamed to simulate growth that does not actually exist, and at the worst, someone could figure out how to profit from that.

Re: Do We Need Central Banks? (2017)

#159
post #61

I'm surprised that the obvious isn't mentioned even by the "opponents" of the current banking system. What increases the risk is that banks create investments without safety backups and what destroys economic growth is the huge bonuses they take out of these investments. Maybe it's because I played poker in the past that I can intuitively see it? In poker usually players play against each other in a zero sum game. Th…

Bankers do not intend to increase risk without safety backups. In the financial crisis banks were incompetent just as much as unethical -- they had risk models that told them they had a safety net, but their models were wrong They also generally don't operate like a casino. They have customers, and sell products. The securitized RMBS products at least in theory offered social benefit: decreasing cost of housing witho…

> Bankers do not intend to increase risk without safety backups. In the financial crisis banks were incompetent just as much as unethical -- they had risk models that told them they had a safety net, but their models were wrong

I agree that what you describe covers most bankers. But you only need one person to come up with something like a CDO secured by credit default swaps. And you only need one person at the top of one of the biggest banks to promote this strategy. Then everybody else needs to follow suit, because profit is not just the source of their bonusses, it's also their protection against predatory competitors. So the number of people who need to start this is quite small, and I still claim that these few people knew exactly what they got us into, and they also knew that they could get away with it.

> in theory offered social benefit: decreasing cost of housing without increasing risk.

That is a foolish idea. The only way you can reduce your own risk is by putting the risk on other people's shoulders. You cannot make risk go away.

> The rise of ETFs has enabled average investors to invest with very low fees

Yes, but google what ETFs will mean at some point for the economy? Normal value creation becomes less and less fruitful. So in the end the whole market goes down and again the small time investors will lose while the big whales get bail outs and eat the smaller fish in the sea.

Also just because the fees in passive management are lower doesn't mean they can't be higher compared to the provided value. McDonalds is cheaper than a really good burger with really good fries, but you also get machine produced blurb in exchange, and in the end McD probably makes a bigger profit than your average, family owned burger shop.

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