Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#151

Post by lifeisstillgood » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #74

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough - this is essentially my own question above - what pressure can be applied by Russia to Apple to prevent App Store UK getting updates? If you have a legal dispute in country A does the prevent all counties getting updates?

> Fair enough - this is essentially my own question above - what pressure can be applied by Russia to Apple to prevent App Store UK getting updates? They can fine the company, ban import of Apple products into the country, block access to App Store, etc. Yes, that same agency. It doesn't even matter which regional section of App Store Telegram would use to publish app - users in need can switch between them and censo…

Let me rephrase- yes they can impose a fine, harass employees, ban imports of iphones, but what can they do that will work - ie force apple to ban a well known app from the app store innsuch a blatant fashion.

Apple would be insane to comply with these demands, because it just opens the door for every other regieme to do the same.

So ... is Apple stopping Telegram from sending the updates? Are they doing it because of Russia pressure?

or is there more?

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#152

Post by floatingatoll » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

The App Store guidelines [5] indicate that, with regard to a single app, the app author (Telegram) "must comply with all legal requirements". Telegram agreed to this requirement when they published their latest update two months ago, and so Telegram – not Apple – is liable for illegality.

Apple received a notice of illegality from Russia regarding Telegram, a third-party app. This notice was inappropriately delivered to Apple, who currently has no responsibility for Telegram. Telegram's compliance with Russian law is not Apple's problem unless a Russian court orders Apple to de-list Telegram. Until such an order occurs, Apple has no reason to de-list Telegram.

Therefore, I believe that Apple did three things:

[1] Apple temporarily suspended Telegram app updates worldwide after receiving a notice of illegality.

[2] Apple immediately forwarded the notice of illegality to Telegram, without any assertion of validity.

[3] Apple notified Telegram that they may resume updates by either declaring in writing to Apple that Telegram is legal in Russia or de-listing Telegram in Russia.

And Telegram did no things:

[4] Telegram has refused to declare in writing to Apple that Telegram is legal in Russia, and has refused to de-list Telegram in Russia.

And Telegram, after two months of refusing to act on [3], is trying to pressure Apple into giving up on [3] using the "woe is me" GDPR excuse.

[5] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#leg...

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#153

Post by Drdrdrq » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:07 AM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #148

walrus01 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding your first paragraph, all of the Chinese domestic versions of Android have been totally successful without the official Play Store. The manufacturer such as Huawei, zte, oppo, etc installs the Chinese app stores as part of the OS load. What you wrote applies to the English language market.

This is a half truth. You are right in that Chinese companies have succeeded without the Play Store, but for one key reason: Google isn't in China. Literally the only place Android is open is where Google voluntarily isn't keeping it closed.

Well, not quite voluntarily.. ;)

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#154

Post by veidr » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:27 AM UTC

dane-pgp wrote: post #124

veidr wrote: post #110

This is a fundamental problem with the single DRM-enforced app store model that Apple innovated, and which has been widely copied and lauded. Once you implement that, you have to toady up to whatever governments exist, including oppressive/murderous regimes, to be in their markets. If your ecosystem is just console video games, say, it's not that big of a deal; you have to either censor some games or don't enter cert…

> If your ecosystem is just console video games, say, it's not that big of a deal; you have to either censor some games or don't enter certain countries at all. Might be unfortunate, but its not a fundamental human rights issue. Be careful of the ground you might concede to the censors. Freedom of expression is most certainly a fundamental human right: https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/quotes/universal-declar... I…

You are right. That sounded more dismissive than I intended, and I agree on both counts; video games can be artistic masterpieces, and freedom of expression is a very important and fundamental human right.

So censorship of games is bad, too. But in my judgement, it is probably not going to rise the the level of interning or murdering people at scale.

Will check out the game. ;-)

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#155

Post by codedokode » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:30 AM UTC

Please note that Telegram is not a Russian company; it is registered in Great Britain. Russian government doesn't have any jurisdiction over it.

Also, russian users are less than 10% of Telegram userbase.

So now Apple is putting sanctions upon a British company just because Russia says so.

This sets a dangerous precedent. What will we see tomorrow? China, Thailand, Iran and North Korea kicking apps they don't like out of App Store? Apple banning apps on political grounds?

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#156

Post by lillesvin » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:32 AM UTC

ggg9990 wrote: post #125

dane-pgp wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your ecosystem is just console video games, say, it's not that big of a deal; you have to either censor some games or don't enter certain countries at all. Might be unfortunate, but its not a fundamental human rights issue. Be careful of the ground you might concede to the censors. Freedom of expression is most certainly a fundamental human right: https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/quotes/universal-declar... I…

There isn’t a single source of truth on what is or isn’t a “fundamental human right.” It’s a matter of opinion that differs across time and geography.

While it's not as universal as its name makes it seem, the UN uses The Universal Declaration of Human Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... That would be a good starting point since it already backed by some pretty powerful countries.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#157

Post by veidr » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:38 AM UTC

sandov wrote: post #116

veidr wrote: post #110

This is a fundamental problem with the single DRM-enforced app store model that Apple innovated, and which has been widely copied and lauded. Once you implement that, you have to toady up to whatever governments exist, including oppressive/murderous regimes, to be in their markets. If your ecosystem is just console video games, say, it's not that big of a deal; you have to either censor some games or don't enter cert…

This is why we must eradicate proprietary software from our general purpose computers, because computers are the single most powerful weapon we have for freedom and self-improvement. It doesn't matter too much if your videogame console is closed source, but it matters a lot if the software you use to read books, to write, to communicate with people is closed source. Apple isn't going to do it, Google isn't going to d…

Well, 100% conversion of the entire world to open-source software would indeed solve the issue I describe. But, I have only 57 more years to live[1], and I don't think I will likely see that happen in my remaining time on earth.

Another way to prevent this issue is simply to have open computing platforms without significant barriers to running arbitrary software, and without any gatekeeper that can prevent them. This is mostly how computers have worked since their inception, and indeed is still how Apple's macOS machines work.

I am not saying that this model can prevent atrocities, but it can prevent companies like Apple from being complicit in those atrocities.

(But I think it's likely that this kind of platform model would benefit at-risk populations to some degree, too, because when there's no effective gatekeeper, there's no central point for a state actor wishing to do evil to apply pressure to.)

[1]: I just assume I will live to 100. :)

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#158

Post by codedokode » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:47 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess my brain is too small to grok this all in one go but are you saying that Russia is applying pressure to Apple (what pressure?) that prevents Apple App Stores in all countries from accepting a new update of Telegram I don't get this - why is Telegram not releasing updates in a UK or Japanese region? What pressure (besides the local russian court system) is being applied here --- In general yes I expect that ap…

We don't have any evidence, apart from Durov's allegations, that Telegram's situation with Apple has anything to do with Russia.

Russian officials said that Apple must remove Telegram from App Store otherwise its work can be "disrupted" in Russia.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#159

Post by codedokode » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:54 AM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #46

eganist wrote: post #23

I'd given this challenge some thought in the recent past, specifically the challenge that the big app store owners are each generally susceptible to coercion by large nation-state actors in spite of being multinationally distributed. There was a project I was involved in rather heavily (cyph // resulted in a pair of neat conference talks) where we'd accounted for the risks of apps being banned by making the entire ap…

I guess my brain is too small to grok this all in one go but are you saying that Russia is applying pressure to Apple (what pressure?) that prevents Apple App Stores in all countries from accepting a new update of Telegram I don't get this - why is Telegram not releasing updates in a UK or Japanese region? What pressure (besides the local russian court system) is being applied here --- In general yes I expect that ap…

Maybe Apple just doesn't have a system to block updates in one specific country?

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#160

Post by veidr » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 6:55 AM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #119

veidr wrote: post #110

This is a fundamental problem with the single DRM-enforced app store model that Apple innovated, and which has been widely copied and lauded. Once you implement that, you have to toady up to whatever governments exist, including oppressive/murderous regimes, to be in their markets. If your ecosystem is just console video games, say, it's not that big of a deal; you have to either censor some games or don't enter cert…

But Apple has to obey the laws of the United States. Here is an alternative viewpoint: If Apple is based in the "right" country (that believes in freedom) -- and I think you and I seem to agree this is the case, because you don't mention anything bad about the U.S., mentioning only Russia and China by name, and with descriptions like "vile shit", "mass murder", "oppression" --, then the U.S. government should be doin…

I don't think the US government has the desire or ability to do that.

Also, I didn't mean to imply by omission that the United States government is not a bad actor. An evidence-based examination of the US government will reveal that it is (when taken as a whole) a deeply and objectively racist institution, has more people incarcerated than China and Russia combined, has killed far more civilians over the past 20 years than China and Russia combined, etc.

But as you say, American companies and individuals typically enjoy a far higher degree of freedom from governmental interference than their counterparts in (say) China and Russia.

So the reason I didn't mention the US government in this context is simply that they don't exert that type of control (at least, not yet) on platform companies like Apple.

Although parts of the US government are trying to ban encryption, and trying to force companies like Apple to create backdoors for the various secret police and law enforcement institutions, they don't seem to be successful with that so far.