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EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

juliareda.eu

151–160 of 223 posts

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few less obvious reasons why you wouldn't want to allow people to link to your content: - Privacy: You want to be in control of how the information on your site is procured. This is common on government sites that generally allow public access, but require all sorts of forms and certifications to gain that access. - Competition: If you are competing with Google or another to create the user's initial land…

You can just have a `robots.txt` if you don't want Google to link to your content.

The issue is that sets a black and white option of not letting people find you through Google. But the alternative is letting Google scrape your content and give it to people directly from their site instead.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#152
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's one thing in common. Money required to obey them. And while GDPR can be somewhat avoided, how in the everloving name of Christ, can you avoid linking without horribly distorting the basic principles of the Web?

GDPR requires money to comply if you weren’t already compliant, yes - and at the extreme, it might even kill your business completely if your business isn’t gdpr compatible. But that’s a transient effect. It is similar to an ordinance saying “starting tomorrow, you may not dump your sewage in the sea”. It might cost you to get proper disposal services, and if your business was about disposing to the sea, you’ll proba…

GDPR sure.

But link tax and upload monitor? How do you avoid that? Never link to anything and never allow any uploads? What about comments, they could contain important excerpt from some book owned by EU publishers.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#153

I hope this dies just like many laws the US tries to pass on regulating the Internet in a way that promotes special interests versus that of the public good. But as a thought experiment, if you were a lawyer tasked to argue this was publicly good, what could you even say? Content creators deserve money for creating content. Aggregators are stealing some of that value and that's inefficient but currently unenforceable…

> what could you even say?

That it is just a fact of life. Every creation is based directly or indirectly on past creations, then how about looking after the rights of entities that contributed to the content created? Should content creators share their revenue? That places them in privileged position. What about profit content creators get from exposure given by aggregators? Should they share too? And so on. This is just terribly stupid.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulations are tools. They’re not inherently good or bad. It depends on how you use them. It's not just that though. There are good and bad regulations in the sense that the law against murder is good and DMCA 1201 is bad, but there are also compliance costs for any regulation, even good ones. Economic transactions have a certain amount of surplus. The value of doing something is $100 and the cost of doing it is $…

But you make that argument like there's a fixed pot of money to go around. $25 to spend on regulation, but tough our ancestors already regulated speed limits and copyright so you can't have any more. Pity about the environment and data privacy but hey. Thing is there's been a fair bit of growth since my childhood, or even since the widespread adoption of the www. Just compare the sheer amount of crap people have comp…

But you make that argument like there's a fixed pot of money to go around.

Well, usually there is. For example, I have a business that should be in a good position to take on its first "real" employees right now. We have the opportunity to take on more work, which would bring in more revenue, which would both boost our profits and create decent paying work for the extra staff. Surely these are all good things from a productivity and economic point of view. But we aren't doing any of that, as a direct result of the time, money and extra risk that would be involved. Obviously an employee has to generate more benefit for the business than it costs to employ them or it's not worth hiring, and that's your "fixed pot of money" in the case of employment regulations.

If a business is so marginal that it can't cope with a change in interest rates or a new regulation or tax rate then any number of other tiny events would have sunk it anyway.

That's true. For a lot of new or very small businesses, one bit of significant bad luck can sink them. Hopefully they will grow beyond that to become more established and robust to minor setbacks, but that takes time and it doesn't just happen automatically. In the meantime, every adverse change in taxes or fees or regulatory overheads really can be a serious problem.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, but not getting linked to has always been an option. Publishers want Google to link to their content. At the same time they want Google to pay for the honor and prevent competitors from letting Google link to their content for free. The only reason this ridiculously brazen set of demands doesn't get laughed out of the room is that these publishers have tremendous political clout.

The big issue is that Google over time has moved to scrape the web. One big thing Google has done recently is they extract what you search for from a website, and show it inline. E.g. when I search for a recipe, I get the result in the Google search, and don’t need to visit their website. https://i.k8r.eu/aILGEg Google extracts reviews from Yelp!, and I can read them without visiting Yelp!. They’re doing this for eve…

> The big issue is that Google over time has moved to scrape the web.

This is true, and a lot of Google's practices are monopolistic/hegemonic.

However banning/taxing links is not the answer.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#156
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/good ideas/ideas directly beneficial to implementer/ Technical standards are not adopted when they interfere with business goals. That's why we have no ubiquitous computing yet, that's why it took regulation to make a standard charging port for phones happen. Regulations are necessary to solve coordination problems on the market - the very problem that's defined by individual voluntary choices leading to bad outcom…

s/good ideas/ideas directly beneficial on the free market/ - to the implementer and/or the customer. The implementer doesn't do things in a vacuum. Customers and competition will swiftly punish ideas beneficial to the implementer but bad for the market. That being said, the regulators do tend to have the arrogance of thinking they know better than the consumer. They take non-issues on the market (charging port) and i…

Customers and competition will swiftly punish ideas beneficial to the implementer but bad for the market.

That has demonstrably not been the case in practice. Proprietary hardware components, legally encumbered "standards" and protocols, software licensing restrictions, and locking up user data are all examples of barriers to competition that are clearly bad for the market and yet have been widely and successfully employed. Typically it has required significant legal/regulatory changes to bring those barriers down, and in some cases we still haven't.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulations are tools. They’re not inherently good or bad. It depends on how you use them. It's not just that though. There are good and bad regulations in the sense that the law against murder is good and DMCA 1201 is bad, but there are also compliance costs for any regulation, even good ones. Economic transactions have a certain amount of surplus. The value of doing something is $100 and the cost of doing it is $…

But you make that argument like there's a fixed pot of money to go around. $25 to spend on regulation, but tough our ancestors already regulated speed limits and copyright so you can't have any more. Pity about the environment and data privacy but hey. Thing is there's been a fair bit of growth since my childhood, or even since the widespread adoption of the www. Just compare the sheer amount of crap people have comp…

> But you make that argument like there's a fixed pot of money to go around. $25 to spend on regulation, but tough our ancestors already regulated speed limits and copyright so you can't have any more. Pity about the environment and data privacy but hey.

Nobody is saying the amount is fixed over time, but that doesn't make it inexhaustible. At any given point there is a finite amount of overhead it's possible to absorb before you're doing more harm than good. If you think your new regulations are more justifiable than your ancestors' old regulations, nobody is saying you can't repeal the old ones to leave more surplus for the new ones. But if you overload a ship, it sinks.

> Thing is there's been a fair bit of growth since my childhood, or even since the widespread adoption of the www. Just compare the sheer amount of crap people have compared to a child of even the 90s. Plenty of slack left for some regulation and changes without even the cost of compliance of 20 years ago - there's so much more money in the system.

"Progress creates surplus" is not a rule. It very often moves it from one place to another.

For example, the rise of refrigeration and microwave ovens in workplaces made it more attractive to bring lunch from home. That means less business for restaurants and fewer customers to amortize fixed costs like rent, which reduces the allowable regulatory overhead before the restaurant goes out of business.

> If a business is so marginal that it can't cope with a change in interest rates or a new regulation or tax rate then any number of other tiny events would have sunk it anyway.

"Don't worry about marginal costs, marginal businesses would fail anyway" is how you successfully boil the ocean. You destroy the marginal businesses -- which is obviously bad -- but you also push an entirely different set of businesses toward the margin, so that when the next regulation or interest/tax rate hike comes, they also sink when they would previously have been able to survive.

And the entire issue here is that it's cumulative. We started with a business that had $20 in costs and $100 in value. That is nowhere near marginal. One regulation that increases their costs by $5 is easily survivable. But twenty such regulations bankrupts them. You have to weigh your alternatives, you can't have everything at the same time.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#159
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There comes a point when the compliance costs exceed the economic surplus available to cover them. If something is not worth doing right maybe it shouldn't be done at all? You are making the same point, opponents of minimum wage. "But I'll go out of business!!!" If your business is that bad, than maybe you should!

Or business will pass the compliance costs to the consumer, thus raising price for all. Those breaking the law and not complying will have a competitive advantage, as well as those large enough to spread the compliance costs over all their production. And thus the raise of the regulation-loving mega-corporation. Wages are the price of work as established by the free market. Minimum wage in effect eliminates less comp…

Edit: I thought my parent poster was the same as my grandparent's parent. I removed a paragraph aimed at the latter. Sorry!

[...]

Just because people earn less and have less money, the economic output in goods won't change. Goods will simply become cheaper.

What really matters is WHERE the money is removed from the system because companies/individuals supposedly hoard it, pay low wages, or cost of compliance is high. Because that place/group/country will become poorer compared to the rest of the world or country.

There's many complex interactions when you think about economies at global or nation scale.

To get to the matter at hand:

> Or business will pass the compliance costs to the consumer, thus raising price for all.

Yes. They may need to hire two additional people or change their manufacturing process to a more expensive one to comply with some safety standards and whatnot. The good might become slightly more expensive compared to other goods, and some economic output will be lost. But everyone will have to do that, which gets me to your next point:

> Those breaking the law and not complying will have a competitive advantage.

Criminals always had a competitive advantage. It's the job of law enforcement to make sure this doesn't happen - if that doesn't work you have a bigger problem. This argument is useless.

> as well as those large enough to spread the compliance costs over all their production.

Depends on what the compliance cost is. Need to hire an extra guy to do paper pushing for compliance? This cost (maybe) can be spread. Need to use more expensive materials? Bigger corps won't have more advantages here than they had anyways (buy in bulk etc.)

> Wages are the price of work as established by the free market.

That's the theory and mostly true. The problem is a disparity in bargaining power and stakes at wage negotiations. You need organizations selling that "work" who are at least as powerful as their buyers (read: unions).

A lack of unions can force companies (through no fault of their own) to determine wages by the market price of their produce, instead of raising their prices. An union has the power to negotiate wages across entire industries - thus allowing companies to compete without doing so on the backs of their workers. (Edit: This is essentially a way of arriving at a minimum wage for that industry).

> They are simply replaced by more productive workers or robots.

Again. Maybe they should use robots - if a robot can perform the work for less than what could be considered a livable wage for a human worker, the human worker is best used elsewhere. You just made a good argument that minimum wages could increase economic output.

> The most vulnerable members of our society are affected the most, being robbed by the dignity and opportunities of a paid job and being relegated instead to live off the government's teat.

The dignity of a job that is paid so badly that the government has to indirectly subsidize the industry by giving the worker additional government aid, even though he has a paid job? Another great example that the free market fails at setting fair wages. Industries like that should be forced to increase their prices instead of indirectly being subsidized with tax payer money by having their workers receive government aid. Yes: McDonalds & Co. prices may increase - but you were paying that anyway, indirectly, with taxes.

Re: EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big issue is that Google over time has moved to scrape the web. One big thing Google has done recently is they extract what you search for from a website, and show it inline. E.g. when I search for a recipe, I get the result in the Google search, and don’t need to visit their website. https://i.k8r.eu/aILGEg Google extracts reviews from Yelp!, and I can read them without visiting Yelp!. They’re doing this for eve…

> The big issue is that Google over time has moved to scrape the web. This is true, and a lot of Google's practices are monopolistic/hegemonic. However banning/taxing links is not the answer.

But what are you gonna do about it then? Ban snippets? Tax snippets? Wait for Google to be the web? Specially regulate Google?

There’s no good solutions.

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