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Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

newyorker.com

151–160 of 230 posts

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#151

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

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Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#152

Of course it is! That's like asking, is monarchy a threat to democracy? Capitalist corporations are basically just little kingdoms.

The assumptions of monarchy-ish corporatism have gone deep enough at this point that we are starting to see ourselves as monarchies of one, rather than equals in some kind of community. That's where you get these sovereign citizen people and also the point of view that every employee is a contractor.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#153
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pure democracy can be described as three wolves and a sheep deciding on what's for dinner.

Ha! That's funny. :) But not entirely accurate. The word "democracy" comes from the word "deme" which essentially a group of individually weak people who band together to make sure that they're all represented against other groups.

A deme was (and is) just a small municipality. There were plenty of powerful people who were members of and essentially ran a deme.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#154
post #75

"Is [Abstraction A] a threat to [Abstraction B]?" No. Human beings who put money and control of land and resources over and above the welfare of other human beings are a threat to us all and always have been. I wish sociopathic hypergreedy control freaks were viewed the same way we perceive pedophiles instead of being rewarded.

I'm confused as to why you think that just because two concepts are abstract they can't interact with each other. How do you explain that logic? Do we claim that capitalism cannot produce hyper-greedy sociopaths? Because I would argue that it distills those people better than most systems. We need some form of modified capitalism which has some checks and balances. We did have that system for a long while, but the co…

My point is that abstracting practical human evil to an "ism" removes responsibility from the actors who commit the evil.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#155

An article with a title like this, people are only responding to the question (which is rhetorical anyway). The OP submission has only been up 1 hour at the time of this comment and the vast majority of the 100+ comments here are addressing only the title question or reactions to it. None mention Polanyi and few discuss the author's most salient points at the end of the article.

Polanyi as a thinker isn't frankly particularly imaginative or interesting: for someone who read British economic history, it appears he missed Adam Smith's Moral Sentiments, political liberalism, and the rise of a parliamentary labour movement in England (as opposed to a revolutionary party).

If Polanyi had considered the above he wouldn't have come to the conclusion that the two possibilities are either socialism or fascism.

The prescriptions - social welfare, etc - at the end of the article are known. The question is why they haven't been implemented in the US (they have in most other Western counties to various degrees).

I address other points in another comment below.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#156

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

This is akin to the argument that communism didn't kill millions because it wasn't really communism. The commingling of government and business is how capitalism plays out in practice, it is an inevitable result of ostensibly "laissez-faire" economics.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#157

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

>b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism A government that is not large enough to upset an even playing field will also not be large enough to level an uneven playing field.

> A government that is not large enough to upset an even playing field will also not be large enough to

...effectively enforce the system of property rights which is the foundation of capitalism, since the latter is an example of the former.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#158
post #58

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

This is not at all the effect being discussed. The effect being discussed is laid out quite plainly in the subtitle. I'll just quote it here, and save you the effort of right clicking and selecting open in new tab: "The idea that authoritarianism attracts workers harmed by the free market, which emerged when the Nazis were in power, has been making a comeback." It's a very simple mechanism. Capitalism produces winner…

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Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#159

Are there any capitalist systems that don't tend towards hierarchical structures? Corporations are hierarchical to a great degree, but what would a system look like that incorporated the benefits of democracy into a capitalist entity? In a democracy, people are in theory given a level playing field through voting that means that Bill Gates's vote is just as valuable as anyone else's. In capitalism, people are given t…

> In capitalism, people are given the ability to create value to their fullest extent. In capitalism people have the ability to create value to the extent they have the capital to do so, a requirement which excludes most people from achieving what they could.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but that's a knowledge problem. Many people have no idea how to procure capital, nor what capital procurement even entails. There are few viable routes to becoming an entrepreneur, and most people would agree that the most viable route is learning from other entrepreneurs.

For me, learning how to operate a business required a lot of reading, failure, and bad decisions. For someone who has easy access to the knowledge that I had to work hard to attain, becoming successful has a much shorter path. For someone who doesn't even have a map (many people in poor or socially disadvantaged communities), it requires a level of tenacity and drive that is very rare.

So while I agree with you that most people are excluded from maximizing their potential, I think the root cause is not a lack of capital, but a lack of knowledge about how to interact with capital.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#160

> Basically there are two solutions,” Polanyi wrote in 1935. “The extension of the democratic principle from politics to economics, or the abolition of the democratic ‘political sphere’ altogether.” In other words, socialism or fascism. This article is predicated on using democracy as a synonym for constitutional representation , which it isn't. Democracy literally means rule by the people: majority rule. If you can'…

Indeed, which is why modern democracies, or at least Western ones, don't describe themselves as democracies (except only as shorthand), but republican liberal* democracies.

* liberal here meaning political liberal (JS Mill liberalism), and not what is understood by "liberal" in US politics.

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