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Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

nytimes.com

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Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#151

Post by walshemj »

mbesto wrote: post #101
SquirrelOnFire wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nowadays, "working-class, blue-collar" stuff does not make money, and if "working-class, blue-collar" people identify with the economic system which designates their labor as a cost to be repressed rather than a service to be rewarded, I'm not sure how much I can do about that. Maybe by pointing to blue collar work that still pays well. A buddy of mine is an auto mechanic and is the sole income earner for his family…

> Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber. Anecdotal, but the average quote I got for electricians in the bay area was $200/hour. This is also consistent for electricians in the wealthy suburbs of Chicago (just had a friend recently get work done at that price). I recently paid $2k to get a transmission done, of which $1700 was labor alone (took 3 days). Point is - these trades are no joke wh…

How much of the high labour costs actually goes to the owner of the shop not the guy/gal doing the work.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#152

Post by walshemj »

breischl wrote: post #124
ajross wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A buddy of mine [...] is an auto mechanic [...another...] is a pipe fitter for gas pipelines [...] next time you call a plumber. Noted without comment that these are all predominantly white, male occupations. Would you say the same thing about dish washing, fruit picking, house cleaning or school teaching? Does that alter your thinking about whether or not "trades" make money? Does it make you want to argue about w…

Most of the examples you provided (specifically dish washing, fruit picking, house cleaning) are not traditionally considered "blue collar" or "the trades." Rather they are considered unskilled labor. So your comment doesn't really respond to the GP's comments about the trades. I suspect that relatively few would argue that unskilled labor is a great way to support a family. I also suspect that conflating unskilled l…

And high end technicians are typically considered associate professional's and not blue collar.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#153

Post by walshemj »

int_19h wrote: post #112
stanfordkid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "everyone can be a millionaire via college" mentality has created a focus on higher education (engineering, medical school, law school etc.) ... and dissuaded people from professions which may be very worthwhile (welder, autoshop-owner) ... but will cap out at wages of $200k-$300k. We've made these jobs seem "dirty" and low class when they're not.

The irony is that a lot (I would even say, most) of what's being done in the software engineering field is really more of a trade, and would likely benefit from being treated accordingly - including having trade schools rather than colleges teaching that stuff. I'm sure there are other industries like that. When enough people realize just how much of it is smoke and mirrors, I think the common snobbery towards those…

Why would it benefit software engineering or the workers? it would benefit employers as they could reduce salary costs and working conditions.

Also this would require employers to commit to training in away they will not want to do and because of the one size fits all they would have to pay for a generic learn the needed skills and knowledge.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#154

Post by walshemj »

astrodust wrote: post #119
stanfordkid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "everyone can be a millionaire via college" mentality has created a focus on higher education (engineering, medical school, law school etc.) ... and dissuaded people from professions which may be very worthwhile (welder, autoshop-owner) ... but will cap out at wages of $200k-$300k. We've made these jobs seem "dirty" and low class when they're not.

It's less about the cap and more about the wage curve. Some industries are extremely punishing. As a musician you either make nothing or millions. As an architect you get paid poverty wages or you're internationally famous and can name your price. If you're a welder you'll get a very good starting wage, and while it will never hit stratospheric levels, the upper end when you you've had years of experience and have wo…

But the % of former blue collar workers who have the interest and can go though the academic requirements is small (and most of that cohort today go to Uni).

For example the requirements to go on my technician course in the UK back in the day required 6 O levels (exams taken at 16) for the Bank only 4. Ok it was a specialized for the local industry themo fluids one.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#155

Post by mgoblu3 »

bilbo0s wrote: post #133
alexhutcheson wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ann Arbor, not incidentally, appears to be doing really well relative to comparable cities and towns in the Midwest.

Not really. I don't really see AA doing that much better than, say, Madison Wi. Which, I'm sure most would agree, is a comparable town. If anything, places like Madison and Champaign in Illinois are doing a bit better. (Well, more population growth anyway.)

Madison is about twice the size of Ann Arbor and also the state capitol: it's going to drive quite a bit more economic growth than AA

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#156

Post by mbesto »

Johnny555 wrote: post #148
mbesto wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber. Anecdotal, but the average quote I got for electricians in the bay area was $200/hour. This is also consistent for electricians in the wealthy suburbs of Chicago (just had a friend recently get work done at that price). I recently paid $2k to get a transmission done, of which $1700 was labor alone (took 3 days). Point is - these trades are no joke wh…

The $1700 labor cost isn't really labor, it also includes overhead like rent, utilities, general supplies, insurance, etc. Some of those costs are also covered by the markup in parts, but not when parts only cost $300. If it took a full 3 days that's 24 hours of work, or around $70/hour, probably half of that went to the employee which gives him around $70K/year salary, not much in the bay area.

> If it took a full 3 days that's 24 hours of work

I should have clarified. It took 3 days end to end. It's unlikely the actual labor was 24 hours (the tech even admitted that once they take the transmission apart they have to let it soak in lubricant).

> rent, utilities, general supplies, insurance, etc.

Of course. But as you can probably imagine, most auto shops skimp on those costs as much as possible. The point is, a developer charging $200/hr (even remote) for their time is also paying for insurance, workspace, computer, internet connection, etc.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#157

Post by weirdkid »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #36
dizzystar wrote: post #22

Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Toledo, and so on got absolutely destroyed after all the mills were shut down. The bar for reviving is incredibly low. Those that could leave, left. The very people that could quicken the recovery of the fallen Midwestern towns are the same people who left. Detroit has UM, Cleveland has Case Western, Pittsburgh has Carnegie Mellon which are all top-flight schools. In a strange way, the…

>Everyone in America doesn't want to stare at a computer, drink $5 latte's, and eat farm to table food. There is nothing wrong with a town that has $3 beers in a plastic cup and a crowd of people screaming until at the TV until they are horse. There is nothing shameful about marrying a man or woman while holding each other's calloused hands at the alter. Sure, but the money for that has to come from somewhere. Nowada…

I've got news for you. Unless you own the business, your work of any kind is a cost to be repressed.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#158

Post by Jupe »

hpcjoe wrote: post #9
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #2

Detroit is an odd place. For years of going there for work it was tough to find locally owned restaurants in favor of chains, it’s do-able but you might end up in weird places like a polish restaurant literally in the basement of a house a few blocks off Woodward. The people who identify with Detroit really do so. There is at first an inexplicable pride of being “from the D”, but it’s nice, there are really diverse a…

Mario's[1] for excellent Italian food. Xoxhimilco[2] for excellent Mexican food. Antonio's[3] in the burbs. New Peking[4] in GC for excellent Chinese food. I've lived in Michigan 30 years now. Came here for grad school, first at MSU, then down to Wayne State for Ph.D. Never left. There is something about this place. Even when we are getting the crap kicked out of us ... we don't give up. It took a long time to get ri…

You've included the link to Xochimilco's in Illinois, not Xochimilco Detroit (which apparently doesn't have a web site - but does have a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/XochimilcoDetroit/) But, I will attest to their food being excellent!

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#159

Post by wcunning »

amyjess wrote: post #110
wcunning wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check Zillow right now -- Ferndale is not particularly cheaper than Ann Arbor these days. More importantly, my Ann Arbor Area to Detroit-ish commute is shorter (in time, not distance) than my friends working in the same building coming from Ferndale. When Ferndale was "cheap," I could have bought a literal mansion in Detroit with my sophomore intern money, cash in hand. To the GP's comments, Detroit has done a lot to…

Saying "statistical area" doesn't give the whole picture because it doesn't tell you what kind of statistical area. Detroit and Ann Arbor are only in the same Combined Statistical Area, not the same Metropolitan Statistical Area. Detroit—Warren—Dearborn, MI and Ann Arbor, MI are separate MSAs in the Detroit—Warren—Ann Arbor, MI CSA. This means that while there are some interlocking commuting patterns between Detroit…

That's quite a lot more than I knew about statistical areas! Thanks for keeping me honest and informed.

I mostly mean that in the following sense: due to some historical Michigan laws, the "City of Detroit" is vastly poorer than, say, Houston. However, the actually equivalent comparison due to Houston's absorbing its own suburbs over the last hundred years is to Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties. This does eliminate Washtenaw County that Ann Arbor is in, but the idea is that the "Detroit Metropolitan Region" is actually not on hard times and hasn't been any more so than any other major city in a very long time. It's just that no one wants to pay Detroit city income taxes, so they live literally across the street in Ferndale or Dearborn. Or, like me, they suck it up and commute from Ann Arbor so that they live somewhere with lower crime, but the job still counts as that region.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#160

Post by prepend »

_rpd wrote: post #72
Bartweiss wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty weird article, without some kind of further support it really smacks of a manufactured narrative. As you say, the population - which the article insists is the key factor - shows no sign of recovering. It's simply ceased the plummet it was in during the economic crisis and preceding years. The rate of decline might be a bit slower than the 90s, but the second derivative is still 0. (If you made me of…

> This is a pretty weird article, without some kind of further support it really smacks of a manufactured narrative. On the other hand, an article like this can contribute to the hoped-for revival. The media has considerable power. It seems ungenerous to criticise them when they use it for good, manufactured narrative or not.

While you are certainly right, news is meant to be objective. Whether they use it for good or not makes them less useful as if they stop being objective then they will lose their ability to sway opinions for “good.”

There’s also the issue of why would they do this good versus another. Is this the neediest city? What evidence do they use to target their good? Most charities and government have controls in place to focus this. If news goes against their charter to try to improve social good, what mechanism do they have to measure this? The NYTimes is a BCorp. They aren’t a charity with a board.

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