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Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

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Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#151

Post by Edicatad »

yread wrote: post #147
michaelbuckbee wrote: post #14

The scale of this is astounding and wonderful: "China had about 99 percent of the 385,000 electric buses on the roads worldwide in 2017, accounting for 17 percent of the country’s entire fleet. Every five weeks, Chinese cities add 9,500 of the zero-emissions transporters—the equivalent of London’s entire working fleet, according Bloomberg New Energy Finance."

Hmm something doesn't add up, or I'm misreading it... if the rest of the world only has 1% of 385,000 (3,850) how come just London has 9,500?

"China had about 99 percent of the 385,000 electric buses on the roads worldwide in 2017" (emphasis mine)

Presumably when they mention London's working fleet they mean all of them, including the non-electric or hybrid ones.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#152

Post by sveme »

abakker wrote: post #86
freddie_mercury wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP was talking about China. China is bigger than the continental US. I think the persistent myth about the US's size being some unique problem doesn't explain much. What's more, if you think of the EU as a comparison for the US, with the individual counties as analogues for US states, it seems to explain even less. Belgium and Massachusetts are the same size but over has much better transit options than the other…

In 2015, Belgium had a Population density of 363people/Km^2. Massachusetts in 2015 had 336 people/KM^2. So, pretty close. The difference is that Belgium has a much more uniform population distribution vs Massachusetts. Secondarily, Belgium can define it's own national policy, while MA must compromise with the rest of the country, including CA, WY, MT, and NY, all of which have very different economic and practical co…

Boston and Munich are about the same size; yet the public transportation system in Munich is significantly better (speed, coverage, comfort of stations and trains, accessibility) than that in Boston. That does not have to be. Instead they spent a couple of billions on the big dig.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#153

Post by nickserv »

wereHamster wrote: post #146
nickserv wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting then to note that Norway, where the oil company is majority owned by the government, also has the largest per capita fleet of electric cars.

But the norwegian government is owned by people, unlike the US govt which is owned by corporations. And the people know that it's in their best interest to switch to EV. Also, the norwegian government will end their investments into oil & gas: https://www.ft.com/content/611c2e9e-cad9-11e7-aa33-c63fdc9b8...

In principle, the US government represents the will of the people. Government officials may be corrupt and in the pockets of corporate interests, but clinging to power is an even bigger motivator. If enough voters demand something, they are usually forced into delivering it, at least partly.

The major problem in my view is the systematic and continuous disinformation campaigns regarding climate change and environmental problems in general (financed of course by oil and chemical companies). By keeping voters misinformed and confused, corporate powers ensure they are able to continue their operations without public oversight.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#154

Post by varjag »

wazoox wrote: post #148
hackbinary wrote: post #135

Okay, cool. But the energy still has to be produced somehow. Are we shifting the diesel to coal power plants? So for every km driven, what is the comparative amount of CO2 produced? Is there a net benefit in this regard? Coal power plants might be more efficient, but then we are shifting the smoke stacks. Then what about the batteries? The batteries need to be produced, and they have a useful lifespan, then need to b…

Even producing electricity from non renewable in large power plants is better than using these same fuels directly: large power plants are much more efficient (close to 40% energy efficiency vs 30% for vehicle motors), and allow much more easily to filter out pollution, including CO2 capture. Sure going from diesel to coal would be bad, but going from diesel engines to diesel power plant would be a significant gain.

It is also a lot easier to shift centralized power generation (from coal to natural gas, to wind, import from neighbour countries) than across the fleet of millions privately owned vehicles.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#155

Post by varjag »

hackbinary wrote: post #135

Okay, cool. But the energy still has to be produced somehow. Are we shifting the diesel to coal power plants? So for every km driven, what is the comparative amount of CO2 produced? Is there a net benefit in this regard? Coal power plants might be more efficient, but then we are shifting the smoke stacks. Then what about the batteries? The batteries need to be produced, and they have a useful lifespan, then need to b…

All power generation here in Norway is renewable, so the comparative CO2 amount is zero, or approximately infinite improvement over petrol.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#157

Post by coldtea »

nickserv wrote: post #153
wereHamster wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the norwegian government is owned by people, unlike the US govt which is owned by corporations. And the people know that it's in their best interest to switch to EV. Also, the norwegian government will end their investments into oil & gas: https://www.ft.com/content/611c2e9e-cad9-11e7-aa33-c63fdc9b8...

In principle, the US government represents the will of the people. Government officials may be corrupt and in the pockets of corporate interests, but clinging to power is an even bigger motivator. If enough voters demand something, they are usually forced into delivering it, at least partly. The major problem in my view is the systematic and continuous disinformation campaigns regarding climate change and environment…

>In principle, the US government represents the will of the people.

Unfortunately that's not really encoded in how you guys and gals do elections.

From gerrymandering, to the stale two-horse race for party-approved candidates, to the emphasis on a single person (the "President") with roman senate undertones as opposed to collaborating MPs (and where are the coalition governments?), to legal lobbying, to the undue role of appointed justices in legislation, to the BS with vote registration (and voting day not being an official holiday)...

It's like everything has been done to distance the governance from the will of the people...

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#158

Post by HenryBemis »

nickserv wrote: post #153
wereHamster wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the norwegian government is owned by people, unlike the US govt which is owned by corporations. And the people know that it's in their best interest to switch to EV. Also, the norwegian government will end their investments into oil & gas: https://www.ft.com/content/611c2e9e-cad9-11e7-aa33-c63fdc9b8...

In principle, the US government represents the will of the people. Government officials may be corrupt and in the pockets of corporate interests, but clinging to power is an even bigger motivator. If enough voters demand something, they are usually forced into delivering it, at least partly. The major problem in my view is the systematic and continuous disinformation campaigns regarding climate change and environment…

It's called lobbying and it works in favor of the big money/oil companies. I don't want to name names, but "Bush administration".

The planet needs to move away from fuel and turn to sun/wind/waves. It is a slow change, but we can't wait for the oil companies to drain every last dollar/euro/yen/.. from us, before 'they do us a favor' on switching to sun/wind/waves.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#159

Post by Tade0 »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #140
danans wrote: post #21

It's a strange shift in affairs that China appears to have the greatest incentives (urban pollution, petroleum imports) today to advance clean transportation and energy while the US has stalled or moved backward, at least the Federal level. Western European countries, for whom fossil fuels don't seem to be an identity politics issue like in the US, are also making more progress in electrifying their transportation an…

It helps that China is a major producer of "rare earth" metals - that's the stuff you need for the accumulators. So they don't have a problem to get the accumulators in massive quantities. https://www.statista.com/statistics/279953/rare-earth-produc...

Rare earths(lanthanum specifically) are only required for NiMH batteries. Li-ions are made up of common elements.

Electric motors on the other hand work much better with added rare earths, although it's still not a strict requirement.

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