Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents • Hacker News Board

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#151

Post by jackvalentine » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 12:39 AM UTC

sathackr wrote: post #128

jackvalentine wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By installing a monitoring and filtering system and informing my child of this and developing in him an idea of what is acceptable and appropriate and what is not and protecting him from potentially life-altering harm. I think OP's point though is at what cost? It's a given that protecting kids from harm is good, but to be convincing in your case I want to see that you can enumerate the downsides and state why they…

I don't conduct a fully peer-reviewed study for each parenting decision I make. It seems to me, for my particular situation and this particular child, that this is the best course of action. Obviously it may not be the best course for every situation or every child. Hopefully each parent can make their own decisions based upon their knowledge and values. Nobody can say 'all kids won't be harmed if they watch porn' or…

What downsides did you personally consider and discard?

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#152

Post by manicdee » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 1:06 AM UTC

idrios wrote: post #142

erispoe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first link is extremely prudent at drawing conclusions. it may well be that too much consumption of pornography decreases one's ability to get to the same degree of arousal in real life. But the meta-study doesn't say anything about the effects of being exposed to pornography as a teenager, and even suggests that these effects are only temporary: quit watching that much porn, and you'll do better. Your second li…

The first link is a review paper of research going on in the field and draws reasonable conclusions. It's also full of language like "A 1999 major cross-sectional study reported erectile dysfunction in 5%, and low sexual desire in 5% of sexually active men, ages 18 to 59 [3]. [...] By 2011, ED rates in young Europeans, 18–40, ranged from 14%–28% [6]." and "A 2014 study on Canadian adolescents reported that 53.5% of m…

Correlated, not linked.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#153

Post by headsoup » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 3:08 AM UTC

martin1b wrote: post #145

mercutio2 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making sex into an illicit thing, rather than just a private thing, frequently leaves teens with damaging relationships to their sexuality and others. The idea that a teen or pre-teen who’s interested isn’t finding porn through someone else’s computer is very likely mistaken. By forbidding access, you are losing your child’s trust, which likely forecloses on the opportunity to honestly and openly discuss healthy body…

So you're suggesting the solution is to encourage watching porn or others while they have sex? How does watching others have sex enable more discussion on healthy body image? Why can't this conversation be started with images seen anywhere that have been altered? Let's discuss the negatives. Porn is anti-woman. It turns the woman into an object. You mention 'damaging relationships' by not watching sex. It is exactly…

Have you discussed exactly these points with your child so they understand the reasons it shouldn't be watched?

You seem to assume that people do not have sex for fun?

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#154

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 8:34 AM UTC

madcaptenor wrote: post #26

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more infuriating to work in a country where the rules for decisions (tenure, periodical assessments, etc) are common between disciplines, so non-journal papers are worth around zero, and your whole subfield pivots around conferences... Common decision in my career: what do I prefer for this paper? That people actually read and cite it, or that it counts for tenure and other career stuff? Many colleagues I k…

Former academic mathematician here. The American Mathematical Society has made periodic statements (2004: http://www.ams.org/profession/leaders/culture/CultureStateme... . 2009: https://www.ams.org/profession/leaders/culture/CultureStatem... ) basically saying that in math, author order is generally alphabetical, as opposed to the lab sciences where lots of information is encoded in the order of the authors. (I'm not…

I have searched for this in the past and I haven't seen any official professional statement, which by the way, is a pity. I have seen people submit personal letters from prestigious professors stating it instead.

In my view, the CS community is somewhat US-centric in this respect... it's not a huge problem for US professors (many of them publish exclusively or almost exclusively in conferences and they seem to be fine) so not much is done, unfortunately.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#155

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

sathackr wrote: post #149

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? > Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they val…

> > As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. > So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? I only prevent him from perceiving what I feel is the most harmful parts of the world to an undeveloped mind. I solicit his input, and my reliance on that will increase as his maturity…

Well, that mostly sounds good ... except your actions seem to contradict your words?

From what I can tell, he wants to look at porn, and he thinks there is nothing wrong with it. Whatever the conclusion of your conversation with him was, he is obviously not convinced that he shouldn't, at best he ends up expressing agreement because he is dependent on you. The only reason why he now does it without you knowing and without any possibility of discussing with you when he sees something that disturbs him is that you force him to, not because he agrees with you. You say that you are not authoritarian, but your actions say the opposite. Either you are exercising power or you are not, whether you dress it up in nice words, doesn't change whether it is authoritarian.

Now, you constantly repeat that you want to protect him from danger, and I guess some of your authoritarian behaviour may hinge on that. After all, authoritarian action is somewhat justified if you know that without it, harm will follow. The problem is that based on what you have written here, you don't know that. You have referenced some extremely unscientific ideas and sources and shown some biases that suggest that you are not rationally evaluating the actual risks and dangers of your child's wishes and your authoritarian responses, but are probably more acting based on your own emotional response. The danger that you are imagining most likely isn't there, but the damage that you do by restricting your child in order to protect him from this imaginary danger is real, both in that it is damaging his trust in you, and in that you are making him internalize that his probably perfectly healthy sexual curiousity is a problem that he has to fight against.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#156

Post by StellarTabi » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

martin1b wrote: post #145

mercutio2 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making sex into an illicit thing, rather than just a private thing, frequently leaves teens with damaging relationships to their sexuality and others. The idea that a teen or pre-teen who’s interested isn’t finding porn through someone else’s computer is very likely mistaken. By forbidding access, you are losing your child’s trust, which likely forecloses on the opportunity to honestly and openly discuss healthy body…

So you're suggesting the solution is to encourage watching porn or others while they have sex? How does watching others have sex enable more discussion on healthy body image? Why can't this conversation be started with images seen anywhere that have been altered? Let's discuss the negatives. Porn is anti-woman. It turns the woman into an object. You mention 'damaging relationships' by not watching sex. It is exactly…

> Porn is anti-woman.

This is false. Mainstream porn may have failed to appeal to mainstream women, but many women watch porn and many categories of porn are not "anti-women".

> So you're suggesting the solution is to encourage watching porn or others while they have sex?

That is a dishonest interpretation of what OP said.

> It turns the woman into an object.

Does it? I find a lot of porn to be empowering as a woman. I find a lot of time they commoditize the man as just a thing the penis carries with it into the scene where the woman is the star of the show, showing us that we too can be involved in the act, we're allowed to express ourselves. We don't have to just lay there and let the male do his business until he's done. We can get nasty and just have fun. We can even be in charge. You usually can't search mainstream porn by male actor, he's just a prop.

By making sex a super strict taboo while sex is a biological imperitive, you exaggerate dangerous behavior. Having your son not treat women like objects comes from a strong moral foundation in upbringing, not sheltering him from porn and assuming he'll figure out women are people on his own. My dad raised me to be aware of the ways men are likely to trick me, but he also made me aware that the majority of people in general have extremely flawed upbringings. He raised me to be a critical thinker, as such I realize that male sexist behavior is both an individual act and a part of a larger systemic problem. I don't need cheap scapegoats like porn to understand poor behavior in males, I don't need to blame all males when I encounter a really bad one.

Education has been and will always be more effective than zero tolerance policies.

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#157

Post by ryanlol » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

Veelox wrote: post #70

XCabbage wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that (assuming you define "young boy" anything like I do, and you live in the developed world) you were not free to get a job, due to child labor laws and mandatory schooling. I can't be too annoyed at your father, since most people don't even see the need to justify parents or teachers exercising authority over children, but if you ARE going to try to philosophically justify it, pretending that a child is jus…

I was able to purchase a $1,000 computer when I was 14 due to smart saving of my money. While it isn't possible for everyone, I did grow up in a middle/upper middle class family where it was possible.

From where did you get the money which you saved?

Re: Teen monitoring apps don't work, and drive a wedge between teens and parents

#158

Post by michaelgrafl » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 10:49 AM UTC

sathackr wrote: post #125

michaelgrafl wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what makes parenting hard. You have to make those decisions. Ideally, you protect your child from things that will damage them permanently, but let them enough freedom to experiment and get hurt, so they can have a true learning experience. For example, I don't think a 10 year old will develop an unhealthy attitude towards females just because of watching porn. I would guess you can talk about gender issues an…

> Ideally, you protect your child from things that will damage them permanently, but let them enough freedom to experiment and get hurt, so they can have a true learning experience. Exactly what I'm trying to do by allowing most things that may be considered inappropriate and only blocking the worst. > For example, I don't think a 10 year old will develop an unhealthy attitude towards females just because of watching…

I don't disagree with much - if anything - you've written. Also I think everyone is aware that different children have different needs at certain milestones in their development. I also agree that you have to tackle parenting on an individual basis because children's natures are so different (everyone with more than one kid knows this for sure). It's just that I'm not particularly worried about porn for exmaple. Certainly not enough to let my child know I'm monitoring him, signaling distrust and make him self-conscious about the things he searches for on the internet. I'd rather have him explore in privacy, and only intervent if that turns out to be a serious problem.

So, no serious disagreements. Although I think your point about nurture vs. nature kind of contradicts your own stance.