China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started • Hacker News Board

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#151

Post by songzme » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

spaceman1331 wrote: post #146

This is a good reason to demand the American government repeal civil rights laws and anti-racism laws. The American people have every right to deny Chinese people access to American services, American businesses, American networks, American contacts, American financial services, and so on. The Chinese are children who cannot be counted upon to operate a society, they are stupid idiots whose arrogance should not be to…

I might have missed your satire but Chinese people and the Chinese government are two very different concepts. It is wrong to use one too judge the other.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#152

Post by crusso » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #108

crusso wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it dehumanizing when I decline a ride with an Uber driver that has 3 stars?

Not necessarily, but such things can be. Say I have a FB-based profiling system that will calculate the star rating alternative. It works slightly better than uber's current rating system. Ie, it's a better measure of how much you will like the driver. It also works before the driver takes his first fare. In fact, uber's minimum star rating policy can be used as a hiring/sign-up filter. Would you consider such a thin…

Reputation systems increase our ability to trust people, products, and systems in general. It seems like our logical concern should be whether or not such systems are accurate.

The flip side of all this is that betrayal of trust is also dehumanizing. When you pay to get an Uber ride and you're taken to the wrong place or ripped off, that's dehumanizing. When you loan someone money and they don't pay you back, that's dehumanizing. When you send someone a product from an E-Bay auction and their payment turned out to be a scam, that's dehumanizing.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#153

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

westiseast wrote: post #149

> Yang, who asked that her real name not be used, ... has no privacy-related concerns. “I trust the government,” she says. “Who else can you trust if not them?” Irony obviously not her strong point.

Chinese get irony and are smart about being subversive under cover, this was probably intentional.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#154

Post by rgbrenner » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

natch wrote: post #94

They can apply this same system to outsiders too as long as they can buy or gather the data. They could then use this inside of countries other than China, where they own increasing numbers of business interests including employers. So this will start affecting behaviors even of non-Chinese people as people anticipate their behavior getting put into the system at some date in the future. Even if the system isn’t in p…

Good point. At some point WeChat, Weibo, et al will want to expand outside of China, and they could apply this system to everyone who uses those platforms.

Just imagine, your social media profile on WeChat, your messages on Weibo, your searches on Baidu, your images on Meipai could all feed into your score. Maybe Momo could display and sort dating matches by their score so you don't end up with someone who's undesirable.

Sounds terrible.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#155

Post by Ajedi32 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

thiagoharry wrote: post #142

Isn't money a form of ranking in our society in this style?

If money were doled out exclusively by the government, perhaps.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#156

Post by niccccccccc » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

thiagoharry wrote: post #150

ibeckermayer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analysis entirely leaves out the most important factor which is: who are the “poles”? China is an authoritarian, control-freak one-party-superstate that jails and kills political opposition. Will the world be more “peaceful” if there’s a multipolar collection of those?

China is less imperialistic and appears to mess less with other country affairs. China never gave support for a dictatorship in my country. USA also jailed and persecuted the Black Panthers and had the macarthism. Their 2 political parties which are able to win elections sometimes appears to be very similar, at least about their foreign policy which impacts the world.

> China is less imperialistic and appears to mess less with other country affairs

China threatens Taiwan INVASION to 'unify state' with FORCE if US Navy arrive

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/890698/World-War-3-Chin...

Chinese Police Are Demanding Personal Information From Uighurs in France

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/02/chinese-police-are-secre...

China demands immediate halt to THAAD missile system now ‘operational’ in South Korea

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/2092259/nort...

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#157

Post by erikpukinskis » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

fermienrico wrote: post #131

niccccccccc wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> paved with good intentions. lol you're giving xi jingping the dictator too much credit. it's a means to monitor and silence his critics, and to prevent protests/uprisings. this is just cultural revolution 2.0. from hitler 2.0.

I agree, I think people are delusional. Let’s watch the uninamous vote to indefinitely extend his term - Xi asks “Is anyone against me?” Scroll down to watch the video in the article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-43188739 This reminds of Christopher Hitchen’s account of Saddam Hussein. Terrifying.

I haven’t been paying much attention, but I just read this report on the event: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/... and noted this:

> However, Susan Shirk, the head of the 21st Century China Centre at the University of California, San Diego, disputed the portrayal of Xi as an almighty Mao-like figure.

> “He’s ruling differently, for sure, and people are intimidated by him because of the anti-corruption campaign.” But Shirk said she was reserving judgment on whether Xi was attempting “a real dictatorial play” until the new line-up of China’s top ruling council, the politburo standing committee, was announced on Wednesday.

> If that committee included at least one of three possible successors – Hu Chunhua, Chen Min’er or Zhang Qingwei – that would signal Xi’s intention to step down in 2022, she said. If no clear successor emerged, however, it would fuel fears that Xi was “going for broke, all-out to be a dictator” and planned to remain in power indefinitely.

I looked and none of those individuals were appointed to the standing committee of the politburo. Two of them are on the regular politburo (Min’er and Chunhua), but Shirk referenced the standing committee specifically. So by her measure this is a dictatorial path.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#158

Post by rgbrenner » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

Asdfbla wrote: post #140

ibeckermayer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analysis entirely leaves out the most important factor which is: who are the “poles”? China is an authoritarian, control-freak one-party-superstate that jails and kills political opposition. Will the world be more “peaceful” if there’s a multipolar collection of those?

I suspect some people are guessing that a multipolar world will be less interventionist (since the great powers might block each other from interfering too much) and therefore adventures like the Iraq war are less likely to happen again. This might arguably make the world more peaceful, though it might allow civil wars to continue for longer. No idea if it's true or will work out that way, but it's one hypothesis I t…

But that's not what happened during the cold war. The US and Soviet Union both fought over allies, influenced affairs in other countries, engaged in proxy wars, etc

You say "block intervention"... how does that work? That sounds like a proxy war to me... like the korean war, or vietnam, or afghanistan in the 80s. It's not peace, it's just bloodier.

The world is more peaceful today without the Soviet Unions fight for influence.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#159

Post by kome » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

rdlecler1 wrote: post #62

kome wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny trivia: the word "meritocracy" is the invention of a British sociologist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Young,_Baron_Young_of_... In his book "The Rise of the Meritocracy" (1958) he describes a dystopia where everything in a society is decided by using "merit" (intelligence + effort). For all of those whom use "meritocracy" with a positive connotation, it should be a compulsory read. It's also short and…

You’re putting up a straw man. I could write a dystopian book about any ideology. A good meritocracy would deal with these issues because a dystopian meritocracy would likely hamper innovation and the emergence of new standards and areas of merit.

Well, it's kinda fun that the very word of meritocracy was invented as a dystopian word, but now it got a positive connotation. That's not a straw man: it's a fun fact.

Re: China’s experiment in ranking and monitoring citizens has started

#160

Post by erikpukinskis » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

ibeckermayer wrote: post #128

hliyan wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that is a good thing. There is no argument more convincing than a demonstration. So I'd rather observe this scheme's first failure in China than elsewhere. The rest of the world can learn a lasting lesson in what not to do. And if it succeeds, then I'd be glad to be wrong.

This is not an empirical issue. Without knowing any of the outcomes, we can already say that a government clocking your every move and giving you a rating based on how favorable the government finds your behavior, all without your consent, is an utterly obscene moral evil.

Generally when people have to use the word “obscene” it’s because they can’t make an argument in moral grounds. See: obscenity laws.

But I’d like to here your argument on why this is immoral.