Live data from Hacker News

Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

blogs.reuters.com

151–160 of 226 posts

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#151
post #65

> As for the modern American worker? After a year on the job, she gets an average of eight vacation days annually. Is this true? In the UK, 'standard' holiday entitlement for most jobs starts at 20 days annually, and that doesn't include official days off such as Xmas, New Year, Easter etc.

It's not true. It's tough to find a job that doesn't offer 2 weeks and most white collar jobs offer 3 weeks (15 days). That doesn't include the typical 13 stat holidays.

I have a job in the US that offers 25 paid days of vacation, plus the standard 13.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. There is still a direct correlation between work and benefit, as in if you work more, you make more, but you keep more. In Communist economies, that isn't true. If you work more, you make more, but you don't get to keep more.

And working your field doesn't provide for your life? The relationship between a peasant's effectiveness at his work and the rewards he reaps is actually more, rather than less, direct than that relationship for someone stocking shelves, because if he produced more food he'd be able to keep more of it -- what was being rewarded was the result rather than the number of hours he spent in the fields.

>And working your field doesn't provide for your life?

Under communism, all surplus (or even the full total) is appropriated by the state. So working more and harder nets no extra benefit on the peasant. The incentive then is to exert as little effort as you can. NPR's Planet Money had a really good podcast on this recently [1]

I speculated that feudal peasant may have been subject to the same kinds of incentives as everything they produced belonged to the local Lord.

>because if he produced more food he'd be able to keep more of it

Under certain communist regimes (Soviet Union and Mao's China), that wasn't necessarily true. The state appropriated everything.

[1]https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/07/583999476/epis...

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#153
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. There is still a direct correlation between work and benefit, as in if you work more, you make more, but you keep more. In Communist economies, that isn't true. If you work more, you make more, but you don't get to keep more.

> There is still a direct correlation between work and benefit, as in if you work more, you make more, but you keep more. This correlation isn't all that direct in my experience.

>This correlation isn't all that direct in my experience.

What do you mean? That's certainly the case for hourly jobs where more hours equals more money.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#154
Conditions in Europe in the 14th century were mostly due to the Black Plague (Black Death), which killed ~50% of the European population. The result was a variety of infrastructure, institutions, and economic systems designed for a much larger population. Used goods and housing were available at very reduced rates. Labor was a scarce commodity. It took a while before Europe regained an economic system that matched its population.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#155
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not want to swap positions with the 14th century peasant I'd go further than that. I would not want to swap positions with a 14th century monarch.

Agreed. Whilst touring Neuschwanstein Castle and Biltmore Estate, what struck me: for all the luxurious art & fineries & service kings & tycoons enjoyed, what we consider basic necessities were hard to come by, if available at all, for even the super-rich. Sitting here in my study, I: teleconference with my team continent-wide, practically have more [e-]books than Vanderbilt's 25,000 volume library, enjoy a constant…

But do you have unlimited access to wenches?

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly more relevant than "vacation", since it's time spent doing little because nobody would pay them for work (and even if they would, there was nothing they could feasibly buy to improve their meagre living standards), not a paid leisure break to spend ones salary on personal enjoyment.

Nobody "paid them for work" in the first place. They weren't wage laborers.

The exact mode of payment is irrelevant. The point is they had to work for sustenance - whether it was trading skills for money, or producing goods and bartering them, or just producing direct necessities.

The core topic is "vacation", the concept of pleasurably not working while using reserves for sustenance. This in contrast primarily with "work" (the process of labor to create sustenance & reserves thereof), and raising the side contrast of "unemployment" (unable to produce sustenance, eating into reserves - or facing the prospect of none - in a decidedly UN-pleasurable situation).

Today we conflate "work" with "payment", as our society has become advanced enough that few indeed need produce the actual essentials of sustenance (ex.: by sitting here thinking for 8 hours, I can produce enough value to trade for a week's essentials - much more productive than simple gardening). The money (now mostly mere etherial bits, tacit agreements of trade) we earn should not obscure the fact that we're working for essential sustenance, plus surplus.

I grew up in a family which engaged in significant (though not complete) self-sufficiency. Heat? cut down trees, split logs, used wood stove. Food? grew half a year's vegetables & fruit. Clothing? made some of it, repaired much. That all wasn't "not working" just because a wage wasn't involved; it was hard work, not a vacation (and not unemployment).

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#157
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has the whole EEU working menial jobs for them. So in Germany VW workers slack off and even protest to get reduced work week, while in EEU German managers walk over a car plant with watches and time each manipulation in order to fulfill their quotas. Yet the sales are reported in Germany, so productivity metrics goes way up there. It's really naïve to think they aren't benefiting from what is essentially soft…

It's good for EEU because they now have jobs. Just look at countries that don't. Like the Baltics. Or CIS. They have to go where the jobs are, en masse.

The comment you’re replying to isn’t claiming the system is bad, merely that statistics about the German short work week are misleading.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And working your field doesn't provide for your life? The relationship between a peasant's effectiveness at his work and the rewards he reaps is actually more, rather than less, direct than that relationship for someone stocking shelves, because if he produced more food he'd be able to keep more of it -- what was being rewarded was the result rather than the number of hours he spent in the fields.

>And working your field doesn't provide for your life? Under communism, all surplus (or even the full total) is appropriated by the state. So working more and harder nets no extra benefit on the peasant. The incentive then is to exert as little effort as you can. NPR's Planet Money had a really good podcast on this recently [1] I speculated that feudal peasant may have been subject to the same kinds of incentives as…

The subject of this discussion is feudalism, so I'm not sure why you've launched into a rebuttal talking about China and the USSR in the 1960s. It isn't true that "everything that [peasants] produced belonged to the local lord."

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#159
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is still a direct correlation between work and benefit, as in if you work more, you make more, but you keep more. This correlation isn't all that direct in my experience.

>This correlation isn't all that direct in my experience. What do you mean? That's certainly the case for hourly jobs where more hours equals more money.

The relationship between hours worked and work done is not direct and, more importantly, the route to advancement into better-paying work is rarely just being really efficient at your job.

Re: Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern workers (2013)

#160
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? No HVAC, electricity, running potable hot water, limited literature, long delivery times.

I don't have HVAC now and nor have I ever felt much need for it; I don't do much online ordering; and I don't spend much time reading other than frivolities online. On the other hand, power, especially over a large organization, and playing in a much bigger game is very interesting.

You use no heating or cooling? That's unusual. Approximate latitude?

I spent 37 years largely without A/C, northern climate usually being below preferred room temperature. Heating, however, was essential. Moving south, both are surprisingly necessary as the area, while quite temperate on average, has annual temperature swings from about 25°F to 105°F - requiring HVAC.

Unless you're in an unusual situation, like high desert in a remarkably well-insulated home, I suspect HVAC is so prevalent in your life you've completely forgotten it's there out of familiarity. Mad King Ludwig of Neuchwuanstein Castle, however, would find much of the year uncomfortably cold - except that he'd completely forgotten it's there out of familiarity.

Post reply on HN