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Can any composer equal Bach?

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Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#151

Post by coldtea »

jhedwards wrote: post #140
coldtea wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but every time I get to Bach, I stop short. I just can't stand the music. What's not to like in these e.g.? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv94m_S3QDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cVSgEdT4KI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9EN27Zh_vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv40mcAM1ZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzZu9HZBWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGQLXRTl3Z0 > I understand the music is important historic…

Sure this music is "nice", and I can appreciate it, but personally I find it boring. I use Bach as background music for when I want to go to sleep. If I want to actually enjoy and be stimulated by music, I listen to something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kwajecmh2c

For me that's the equivalent of disliking Muddy Waters or the Rolling Stones but rocking to Air Supply or Foreigner :-)

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#152

Post by zwieback »

planxty wrote: post #23
zwieback wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not the only one who feels like that and you can safely ignore the critics. There's no doubt Bach was a great composer but even asking the question whether there's a "greatest" is pretty dumb. I happen to love some of Bach's works but know many people who find his works too mathematical or cold.

I would wager they haven't listened to good performances or haven't spent enough time with Bach's music. There's nothing cold about BWV199. Find Gardiner's rendition featuring Magdalena Kozena, it'll knock your socks off.

Wow, her voice is fantastic. Listening to her Rueckert Lieder now, thanks for the tip!!

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#153

Post by scabarott »

Moorcountry wrote: post #133
stochastic_monk wrote: post #8

A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to a…

Beethoven is not at the level of Mozart in terms of the amount of lyricism and pathos infused into each work. Many of this piano sonatas are pretty plain and boring.

I sincerely hope this is a minority opinion

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#154

Post by luckydude »

coldtea wrote: post #151
jhedwards wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure this music is "nice", and I can appreciate it, but personally I find it boring. I use Bach as background music for when I want to go to sleep. If I want to actually enjoy and be stimulated by music, I listen to something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kwajecmh2c

For me that's the equivalent of disliking Muddy Waters or the Rolling Stones but rocking to Air Supply or Foreigner :-)

I wish I could upvote your comment more, perfectly put.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#155

Post by ken »

palimpsests wrote: post #148
ken wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the same person, but I feel similarly -- though I come from a classical family. My preferences run to Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Brahms, and Wagner. Classical music generally got better as time went on. I mentally group Bach with other 'early music', and as with any art form, I recognize that the early steps were historically significant, but that's about it. I can appreciate the importance of the silent fi…

That's why, when I perform Bach's cello suite, I change the rhythms, sometimes quite a bit. I see it as a great sketch in melody and harmony, a springboard to experiment with some more rhythmically sophisticated ideas. It's so fascinating to me that we've fallen under the very real illusion in these modern times that "classical" music has virtually no concept of improvisation, that most of the primary elements of mus…

It's true that in my years taking cello lessons, improvisation never came up. That might help, but I'm not convinced that it's a complete explanation for the disconnect between me and Johann.

I confess I don't know the rules of baroque improvisation, but the links posted in other comments here seem to be faithful to the score (at least, for the ones I'm familiar with), yet the commenters seem skeptical anyone could dislike these recordings.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#156

Post by bratsche »

username223 wrote: post #141
bratsche wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the one I'm talking about on Apple Music, John Williams playing them on guitar. It's BWV 995 for lute, and it is in a minor. fwiw on cello it's BWV 1011.

I'll check it out, since Williams is a great guitarist. I have a couple of recordings of BWV 995 at hand, and they both claim to be in G minor.

Oh, interesting! Perhaps Bach wrote it for lute in g minor and Williams plays it in a minor on guitar? I didn't think of that.

Wikipedia seems to agree with you on the key: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suite_in_G_minor,_BWV_995

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#157

Post by xkgt »

entropie wrote: post #119
aimeric wrote: post #93

Since we're on this topic: Is Western classical music (typified by Bach) really the zenith in our human understanding of the 'universal' language of music? Certainly, the complex and subtle tunes and harmonies of classical, in particular, give us goosebumps, provoke intense emotional responses. Do the same phenomena occur in other musical cultures? Traditional Japanese, Chinese, Javanese, Indian - their musical expre…

> Alternative musical structures that are just as valid, yet wildly unfamiliar? Some music taste is very culture influenced, not questioning that. But I think present some classic music tracks (and I mean not only pieces from Bach & co) to any human kind with any cultural background and it will somehow touch that person.

I don't think so. Douglas Hofstadter in GEB, also makes a similar claim. I tried listening to Bach many times and found it laborious. Same would be true for a western listener to suddenly tune to MS Subbulakshmi singing 'Nagumomomu' or Kunnakudi teeing off 'Pranamamyaham' with Valayapatti.

I may have started with the wrong tracks or may be not, but the bottom line is that I didn't find much common to relate to. At the very minimum, the tracks sounded structured and mathematical which is why I was surprised by the description of them being emotional. Until now I was under the impression that at least emotional appeal crosses cultural barriers.

Appreciating pinnacles of music in any tradition requires cultural attunement, exposure to prior works of art, familiarity with the idioms of expression etc., OTOH music that have pan-cultural appeal are often primal and simplistic. I am not entirely sure whether one is better than the other.

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#159

Post by goldenkey »

xkgt wrote: post #157
entropie wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alternative musical structures that are just as valid, yet wildly unfamiliar? Some music taste is very culture influenced, not questioning that. But I think present some classic music tracks (and I mean not only pieces from Bach & co) to any human kind with any cultural background and it will somehow touch that person.

I don't think so. Douglas Hofstadter in GEB, also makes a similar claim. I tried listening to Bach many times and found it laborious. Same would be true for a western listener to suddenly tune to MS Subbulakshmi singing 'Nagumomomu' or Kunnakudi teeing off 'Pranamamyaham' with Valayapatti. I may have started with the wrong tracks or may be not, but the bottom line is that I didn't find much common to relate to. At th…

I agree but I also would remind you that the player plays a large role in keyed music. For example, constant velocity MIDI makes a dissonant slaughter of any harmonic music, and totally destroys the swing of rythymic music. A player with the wrong motivation or lacking passion, pretty much reduces to a souped up MIDI. Organs are especially expressive, even more so than pianos.

Try listening to the "Frankenstein music" from Bach, it is pretty easy to relate to and Hans-Andre Stamm plays it on an appropriately large church organ with the necessary emotion and "godhead" existential feeling/motivation behind it.

https://youtu.be/Nnuq9PXbywA

Re: Can any composer equal Bach?

#160

Post by machinehermit »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #11

I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've…

I thought the same until I found this performance of BWV 639 on piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT19lmeMI6c

BWV 999 on an actual lute is amazing too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnpaMm_2QYc

The ultimate problem with Bach is 1000+ compositions but only a few usually get mentioned as "the hits".

Looking back I think I just thought of Bach as only sounding like fugues because fugues are his most popular works and what gets played on classical music radio here.

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