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Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

independent.co.uk

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Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#151

Post by briandear »

sizzle wrote: post #55
refurb wrote: post #23

As a former chemist, call me suspicious of these findings. Can cleaners be an irritant to the lungs? Of course. Inhaling a lot of things can be an irritant. Most cleaners that consumers use are surfactants sometimes mixed with alkylbenzonium disinfectants (in very low concentration). Even cleaners that are ammonia based aren't harmful. Now on the professional side, I could believe there is risk. Some of those chemica…

Why do you believe ammonia/chemical based cleaners are not harmful when inhaled from normal day to day use? I say that as someone who majored in human bio and can only imagine that inhaling these chemicals will have adverse effects on your health.

“Can only imagine..” Imagine all you want, but imagining isn’t data.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#152

Post by erikpukinskis »

outlace wrote: post #137
learnstats2 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hypothesis which permits compatibility with any reality it is of limited practical value. If it's ultimately not falsifiable, it's not science.

It’s a completely testable and falsifiable hypothesis. The original commenter seemed to be dismissing the hypothesis based on an anecdote that he thought falsified the hypothesis and I was pointing out that it does not. Of course any hypothesis that cannot be falsified is not worth entertaining.

How would you falsify your hypothesis that the wife's allergies are from a "too clean" environment?

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#153

Post by shitgoose »

kpil wrote: post #103
outlace wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the hygiene hypothesis, I wonder if your allergies got better because you’re exposing yourself to more (generally harmless) microorganisms and hence challenging your immune system more. Since I’m sure lactic acid doesn’t sterilize as well as some strong bleach or other chemical.

The idea that allergies somehow are caused by our sterile lifestyle is suspicious at best. It's might just be an appeal to nature - "all natural ingredients" fallacy. I claim that an individual has never before - in the history of mankind - been exposed to so many and different microorganisms as we are now. Comparing my daughter to my granddad, born 99 years before her, she probably meets as many "new" people per wee…

i doubt you exchange bodily fluids with 1000s of people around you. maybe some, but not 1000s. AC and recycled air, on the other hand, are completely devoid of microorganisms that travel through the air. allergies is a north american thing, virtually unknown to other parts of the world.

EDIT: AC and the recycled air is the actual point of this comment. fluids was the joke, apologies to offended. north america breathes AC recycled air. no one else does. at least not to this extent. at the same time, one of the standard conversation topics amongst immigrants (to NA) is "wtf does everyone here have allergies and what are they anyway?". until they develop their own after living here for a number of years.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#154

Post by nsgi »

forgotmypw wrote: post #32

Our bodies are 4-billion-year-old spaghetti code that gets added to every time it runs. They have been evolving all this time for exposure to a very particular range of chemicals. Every time you introduce a new chemical into the mix that has only been in our environment for less than 100 years, you are testing your body's ability to deal with them for the first time.

So avoid all drugs that have been around for less than 100 years?

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#155

Post by microtonal »

bosie wrote: post #141
microtonal wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use a Kärcher SC3 steam cleaner. It's cheap (~€100) and pretty good. Even the SC2 is decent. I'd like to add a me-too. We bought a Kärcher SC3 to remove old wallpaper when we moved to another apartment (IIRC the price of hiring a steamer for a couple of days made buying one attractive). We use it now to clean our tiled floors, the bathroom, etc. and it has been excellent. The hot steam removes most stains without m…

Can you use it to clean something like the counter top of the kitchen and non-tile floors (i.e. wood or laminated floors)?

I don’t know. We have used it twice or so on laminated floor, but I don’t know the longer-term effects. Most of the surface in our apartment is tiled.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#156

Post by outlace »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #152
outlace wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a completely testable and falsifiable hypothesis. The original commenter seemed to be dismissing the hypothesis based on an anecdote that he thought falsified the hypothesis and I was pointing out that it does not. Of course any hypothesis that cannot be falsified is not worth entertaining.

How would you falsify your hypothesis that the wife's allergies are from a "too clean" environment?

You can’t, in general, test something that already happened. Moreover, given the immune system is a complex system with some degree of randomness involved, it would probably be impossible to prove that any particular person’s allergies were caused by a too clean environment. But we can certainly study it at a population level and it can be falsified with populations.

This is similar to smoking. Smoking is a good explanation for a large amount of the cases of lung disease at the population level and is falsifiable at that level. But it is impossible to say that smoking caused a particular person’s lung cancer.

So my original comment of “I wonder if...” is just that. A musing, not a hypothesis. I can’t prove anything for a particular person. But maybe more people will be aware of the hygiene hypothesis and might take it into consideration.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#157

Post by sizzle »

briandear wrote: post #151
sizzle wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you believe ammonia/chemical based cleaners are not harmful when inhaled from normal day to day use? I say that as someone who majored in human bio and can only imagine that inhaling these chemicals will have adverse effects on your health.

“Can only imagine..” Imagine all you want, but imagining isn’t data.

Yes and correlation =/ causation despite how my brain rationalizes things. If we are talking scientific method, then my hypothesis is that inhaling ammonia frequently will result in adverse health effects. Feel free to test this out and prove otherwise.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#158

Post by forgotmypw »

nsgi wrote: post #154
forgotmypw wrote: post #32

Our bodies are 4-billion-year-old spaghetti code that gets added to every time it runs. They have been evolving all this time for exposure to a very particular range of chemicals. Every time you introduce a new chemical into the mix that has only been in our environment for less than 100 years, you are testing your body's ability to deal with them for the first time.

So avoid all drugs that have been around for less than 100 years?

I would say, use them sparingly.

Be aware that the mechanisms behind most modern drugs are mostly theories.

Respect the law of unintended consequences.

Listen to your body carefully, give it rest when it wants, and trust your body to do its own healing.

When your life is in danger, consider medical professionals.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#159

Post by nextos »

terraforming wrote: post #140
nextos wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use a Kärcher SC3 steam cleaner. It's cheap (~€100) and pretty good. Even the SC2 is decent. As an alternative, Polti high-end ones are excellent. They invented domestic steamers, and I've seen some used at hospitals. The have accessories for e.g. steaming your mattress to get rid of dust mites. I use a Miele C3 Silence vacuum cleaner. It's the cheapest (~€220) Miele vacuum cleaner that has top (A class in EU) filt…

Can you share the source for "that has top (A class in EU) filtration" please? I might be buying a new vacuum soon and would like to research it well before doing so.

Most online ads in EU include this information. Check e.g. Amazon UK or DE. Or manufacturers websites.
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