Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction' • Hacker News Board

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#151

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 4:06 AM UTC

powercf wrote: post #21

radagast wrote: post #7

This has been discussed for as long as I remember myself (am 30 now). First it was the influence of english in TV (we only dub childrens shows and movies). I came unscattered from my youth and really doubt that my children won't be as good or better at icelandic than me. Everyone has learned icelandic, basic danish and advanced english at age 16. From the age 16-20 majority of kids add a fourth language which is eith…

My problem is that, as time goes by, English use will become more common, and Icelandic less. The spread of the English language (e.g. the children in the article who '“know what the word is” for something they are being shown on the flashcard, but not in Icelandic.') is accompanied by the spread of US culture (TV, film, music). While US culture isn't neccessarily better or worse than any other, I get a lot of enjoym…

> I get a lot of enjoyment from visiting places where English isn't spoken

Sure, but people decide what language to speak based on what is most practical for them. Not on what gives you the most exotic vacation.

Personally, I see a future world where all people on earth can talk to each other as an enormous benefit. I'm really confused by the priorities of anyone who honestly thinks otherwise.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#152

Post by BrandonM » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

sdhgaiojfsa wrote: post #61

mbid wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all knowledge is logic or maths.

It's an analogy.

That's just not how language works. Gödel, Escher, Bach really hammered this home for me. Many ideas are easier to express in one language or another, to the point that they are practically inexpressible in another language.

This is even true in math. Based on the set of axioms you allow, you can prove certain facts. A math with different axioms may have completely different theorems, and some observable real world behavior can be better modeled under one set of axioms than another.

Language could be described as a math for personal expression and everyday life, and each language has its own axioms and theorems.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#153

Post by pmarreck » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 4:38 AM UTC

radagast wrote: post #7

This has been discussed for as long as I remember myself (am 30 now). First it was the influence of english in TV (we only dub childrens shows and movies). I came unscattered from my youth and really doubt that my children won't be as good or better at icelandic than me. Everyone has learned icelandic, basic danish and advanced english at age 16. From the age 16-20 majority of kids add a fourth language which is eith…

As an American foreigner who visited Iceland a couple of years ago, I cannot describe to you how awesome everyone was (and educated, and fluent English-speaking), how beautiful the country was, how fun the nightlife (at least in Reykjavik) was, how delicious the dining was, the geekiness of visiting the EVE Online monument (I'm a gamer), and just... we had such a damn nice time, and the english fluency of everyone really helped, and I appreciate that you all learn it. I would recommend Iceland to anyone as an unusual and extremely interesting place to visit. Skál!

Hákarl FTW

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#154

Post by wyclif » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 6:44 AM UTC

SEJeff wrote: post #71

powercf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that, as time goes by, English use will become more common, and Icelandic less. The spread of the English language (e.g. the children in the article who '“know what the word is” for something they are being shown on the flashcard, but not in Icelandic.') is accompanied by the spread of US culture (TV, film, music). While US culture isn't neccessarily better or worse than any other, I get a lot of enjoym…

You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Equating the spread of English as a step in the Americanization of the world (to me) is a bit silly. I can reword your statement to use Spanish and Peru. It sounds just as weird: I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. In America, we speak all kinds of languages, of which English is t…

I'm in the Philippines now, and the irony for me, as an American, is that English is not an official language in the USA, yet in the Philippines it is (along with Filipino).

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#155

Post by Grue3 » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 6:48 AM UTC

smitherfield wrote: post #15

marten-de-vries wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a middle road, you know: being bilingual. To run with the Icelandic example, you'll be hard pressed to find someone who speaks it but not English. Where I live, there's also a local language (Frisian) spoken beside the 'bigger' language (Dutch). And here too, lots of people speak English. Or if not, you might get lucky with German.

But is it a sustainable road? French-Canadians have been complaining for many years that Montreal's "bilingual" neighborhoods become English-speaking in a decade or so, and "French-speaking" neighborhoods become bilingual. And this is despite extensive government efforts to encourage or even enforce the use of French. You can see the same trends in Catalonia, Wales, Ireland, etc. Where the government intervenes in th…

>Visiting Strasbourg (in Alsace, France), people's surnames, street and place names, and the local cuisine are all German, but nobody speaks a word of it.

Maybe they don't speak it normally, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people there can speak German. You can literally take a city bus (or walk) over the border into a German town Kiel. And everyone speaks German there. There are people who work in Strasbourg and live in Kiel, or vice versa.

The Alsatian dialect was always more of a rural thing. Both French and the Nazis suppressed it so unfortunately it's pretty rare these days. Still, according to Wikipedia, 43% of adults in Alsace could speak it in 1999. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_dialect

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#156

Post by Grue3 » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 7:03 AM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #111

kodis wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see it as a winner-takes-all situation. Here in the US my wife and I both enjoy many of the BBC productions, the 'Brit-com' comedy shows, and have noticed that a significant percentage to the actors even in US produced shows are from the UK or Australia. It seems that there's plenty of room for good programs no matter what their country of origin.

How many German productions have you seen? How many French? Germany and France each produce just as much or even more content than the UK. Yet, none of this content ever leaves the country. British content can directly be sold on the US market, which means they can get much more money from those licensing deals to finance more productions. The only situation where German or French productions show up internationally…

>Yet, none of this content ever leaves the country.

And whose fault is this? People enjoy Japanese media all over the world despite the language barrier. French media used to be very popular in my country, like for example Louis de Funès movies? Even Iceland produces media that's popular worldwide, like Lazy Town or Bjork.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#157

Post by intopieces » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 7:32 AM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #131

icebraining wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the language being imposed isn't a Native American language.. If a Frenchman shoots someone with a bullet made in Germany, would you say the victim was killed by a German? The origins of the language don't matter to the point being made, which is that having one's native language adopted by everyone else provides massive benefits in spreading one's culture and values, while weakening and even killing off others.…

> The origins of the language don't matter to the point being made, which is that having one's native language adopted by everyone else provides massive benefits in spreading one's culture and values, while weakening and even killing off others. And that point is irrelevant. Now that everyone is communicating with everyone else, a common language is an inevitability. And that language isn't going to be chosen democra…

> Now that everyone is communicating with everyone else

Where did you get this idea? Only 47% of the world is using the Internet [0]. Only 20% speaks English [1]. Hell, even the "most commonly spoken language" Mandarin consists of dialects that vary between mutually intelligible to total unintelligible.

If AI allows us to convincingly translate among languages when speaking to each other, it would remove any need for people to learn a common language. Given how much research is going into that problem, we might see that problem solved faster than the time when "everyone is communicating with everyone else."

[0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/11/22... [1]https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/how-many-people-speak-eng...

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#158

Post by T2_t2 » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

radagast wrote: post #7

This has been discussed for as long as I remember myself (am 30 now). First it was the influence of english in TV (we only dub childrens shows and movies). I came unscattered from my youth and really doubt that my children won't be as good or better at icelandic than me. Everyone has learned icelandic, basic danish and advanced english at age 16. From the age 16-20 majority of kids add a fourth language which is eith…

You speak Viking. I'll be eternally jealous!

I think being from a small nation with such an odd history is awesome. I think Icelandic will preserve itself because the Icelandic people seem stubbornly determined while also pragmatic.

Being fluent in English and Viking is all upside, no downside.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#159

Post by kuschku » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #156

kuschku wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many German productions have you seen? How many French? Germany and France each produce just as much or even more content than the UK. Yet, none of this content ever leaves the country. British content can directly be sold on the US market, which means they can get much more money from those licensing deals to finance more productions. The only situation where German or French productions show up internationally…

>Yet, none of this content ever leaves the country. And whose fault is this? People enjoy Japanese media all over the world despite the language barrier. French media used to be very popular in my country, like for example Louis de Funès movies? Even Iceland produces media that's popular worldwide, like Lazy Town or Bjork.

Is there any pair of countries (A, B) so that A != USA, B != USA, and A consumes more movies from B than from USA?

I’d argue that no such pair of countries exists, except potentially ones with restricted media import rules, e.g. the pair of (North Korea, China).

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#160

Post by radagast » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

S4M wrote: post #106

hsivonen wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the story behind everyone learning basic Danish still? Are there actual use cases for it?

Iceland and Denmark have closed ties.

Not really though. Not more than to Norway or Sweden. It's an old historical thing from when the danes ruled over Iceland.