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Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

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Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#151

Post by marnett »

iamdave wrote: post #123
myf01d wrote: post #29

Imagine if he was black btw I am not even white, but this politically correct tyranny in the west is getting ridiculous

I am not white either. What I am is tired of the phenomenon of using black people and the experience of being black as a stand in, du jur, for when people want to illustrate the objectionable nature of certain arguments. If a point is objectionable, argue it on the merits of its inherent validity or lack there of. Black whataboutism doesn't serve this purpose, it unfairly weaponizes the color of my skin.

I think the thought exercise from GP is to imagine what would have happened if he was in an ethnic minority as opposed to being caucasian.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#152

Post by darawk »

georgemcbay wrote: post #125
darawk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to the extent that it attempted to organize around changes to Google management that might (might) themselves violate EEO laws (for instance, any kind of official recognition that men are better suited to software development at Google than women), they were not. Was he trying to do that, though? As I understand it, he was protesting policies that sought to actively promote diversity. EEO laws require no such a…

> Curious, why do you believe in that? Have you evaluated the evidence and come to that conclusion, or is it a priori for you? Curious why you question his belief? All of the half-way reputable studies I've ever heard of have either concluded that there is no difference in male/female intelligence or that there are small differences in certain silos, with men scoring slightly higher on average in visuospatial while w…

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/01/gender-imbalances-are-m...

My views are in part informed by this essay. It mostly deals with issues of interest, rather than ability, but the cumulative effect of interest divergence culminates in aptitude divergence.

That being said, i'm open to hearing contrary evidence. To the extent that i've read about it, there are non-trivial difference and they are large enough to at least partially explain some of the discrepancy in jobs like software engineering.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#153

Post by majormajor »

Veelox wrote: post #127
majormajor wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is being "complicit" in same sex marriage any worse than being "complicit" in a marriage for someone who has sinned, possibly grievously, in other ways? The difference is only in the obviousness, and it's not clear to me that that's a good reason. It appears internally inconsistent in a way I've never heard a sufficient explanation for. And as someone who no longer believes, who does support the explicit non-theo…

> Why is being "complicit" in same sex marriage any worse than being "complicit" in a marriage for someone who has sinned, possibly grievously, in other ways? It isn't worse. I know pastors who would refuse to marry a couple that included someone how was divorced or a couple that was having pre-marital sex. They cannot get in legal trouble for refusing that but they might get in legal trouble for refusing to marry tw…

At a meta-level: the discussion in this thread is one that I would hope would be welcomed anywhere that encouraged discussions of religion/politics in the workplace (I also understand workplaces that just don't want any of that).

But sadly, civility is not something I'm widely accustomed to in these debates, so I understand the general defensiveness that accompanies most comments on homosexuality. Which is why I'd favor workplaces not to encourage that sort of discussion at all. Though even then you'd expect a certain amount of prevailing winds, which is why I brought up Mark Noll - the dominant forms of Christianity in the US have largely retreated from making intellectual arguments, so in most intellectual circles you don't many. My answer to "why are universities so liberal" is "because religion went off and built a parallel education system because it didn't respond well to the challenges of evolution and other modern science."

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#154

Post by tptacek »

darawk wrote: post #152
georgemcbay wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Curious, why do you believe in that? Have you evaluated the evidence and come to that conclusion, or is it a priori for you? Curious why you question his belief? All of the half-way reputable studies I've ever heard of have either concluded that there is no difference in male/female intelligence or that there are small differences in certain silos, with men scoring slightly higher on average in visuospatial while w…

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/01/gender-imbalances-are-m... My views are in part informed by this essay. It mostly deals with issues of interest , rather than ability , but the cumulative effect of interest divergence culminates in aptitude divergence. That being said, i'm open to hearing contrary evidence. To the extent that i've read about it, there are non-trivial difference and they are large enough to at lea…

This is a perennial debate on HN. Since you asked specifically for me to expand on my own beliefs, my request to you would be to use the search bar at the bottom of the page and find one of the zillion threads I've stated at length my beliefs about this topic on. Wow, that was a bad sentence. Either way though: I'd rather keep on the topic of labor law here.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#155

Post by d1zzy »

guyzero wrote: post #102
tntn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is that discrimination against conservative viewpoints is not a significant phenomenon in SFBA tech, unless by "conservative" you mean sexist or racist. Or don't think gay marriage should be legal, or are religious, or dislike welfare, or oppose the ACA, or think abortion should be illegal. EDIT: Or thinks having separate male and female bathrooms makes a lot of sense, or supports strict immigration polici…

So you're saying people have been discriminated against in SFBA tech companies for believing in strict immigration policies? This seems like a pretty strong claim and I'm curious what examples you have other than it being something most people don't agree with.

Depends on if that creates a hostile work environment or not. If a lot of your coworkers would be (or believe that they would be) negatively impacted by the policies you publicly support and talk about, then it's reasonable to think that they will have trouble working together with you and it's reasonable to think then that management may not see you expressing these views as something useful or positive for the company. And by "negative" above I do not mean that they would be inconvenienced, I mean that these policies may have drastic consequences on their lives and families, something it is much harder for those people to not have an emotional response to.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#157

Post by jdavis703 »

tptacek wrote: post #2

The first thing everyone needs to know about this is what the case was about, because it implicates one of the most powerful and least known rights tech company employees have. According to Section 8(a)(1) of the NLRA, employees can't generally be disciplined for exercising the rights provided under Section 7 of the NLRA. These rights are commonly understood to be about unionizing (ie, you can't be fired for trying r…

> "concerted action" to improve working conditions

Improve the working conditions for whom though? IANAL, but I would think that it'd have to be an improvement in the working conditions for everyone, or at least not have a negative impact on other, non-managerial groups.

For example say engineering gets tired of the sales department's constant phone conversations and boisterous behavior. They organize a group that seeks to eliminate the sales department altogether, after all, the engineers are building a self-service SaaS product that sells itself.

Would the engineers have legal recourse if they were fired for seeking a change that would harm some other group?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#158

Post by IWeldMelons »

georgemcbay wrote: post #125
darawk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to the extent that it attempted to organize around changes to Google management that might (might) themselves violate EEO laws (for instance, any kind of official recognition that men are better suited to software development at Google than women), they were not. Was he trying to do that, though? As I understand it, he was protesting policies that sought to actively promote diversity. EEO laws require no such a…

> Curious, why do you believe in that? Have you evaluated the evidence and come to that conclusion, or is it a priori for you? Curious why you question his belief? All of the half-way reputable studies I've ever heard of have either concluded that there is no difference in male/female intelligence or that there are small differences in certain silos, with men scoring slightly higher on average in visuospatial while w…

It is still unclear though, why a belief in lower or higher aptitude of a particular group (as a whole) for a some specific type of activity should lead to any kind of discrimination. I realize, it often does, but attempt to silence the research and potentially, the truth, for some political reason does not sound good.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#159

Post by bradleyjg »

tptacek wrote: post #2

The first thing everyone needs to know about this is what the case was about, because it implicates one of the most powerful and least known rights tech company employees have. According to Section 8(a)(1) of the NLRA, employees can't generally be disciplined for exercising the rights provided under Section 7 of the NLRA. These rights are commonly understood to be about unionizing (ie, you can't be fired for trying r…

> The NLRB turned down Damore's complaint. I think he could theoretically still sue in civil court? I don't think that's commonly done? Either way, his complaint was denied.

Technically the NLRB didn't act on Damore's charge because he withdrew it. The Advice Memo was requested by and directed to a Regional Director at the NLRB. If the charge had not been withdrawn the Regional Director likely would have refused to issue a complaint, i.e. dismissed the charge. That decision could have been appealed to the General Counsel, a Presidential appointee. The person that wrote the memo, the associate General Counsel for the Division of Advice, reports directly to the General Counsel. If the General Counsel upheld the decision to dismiss the charge, that decision would not be appealable to any court. Nor can the relevant provisions of the NLRA be enforced directly by private lawsuit.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#160

Post by Veelox »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #101
tntn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is that discrimination against conservative viewpoints is not a significant phenomenon in SFBA tech, unless by "conservative" you mean sexist or racist. Or don't think gay marriage should be legal, or are religious, or dislike welfare, or oppose the ACA, or think abortion should be illegal. EDIT: Or thinks having separate male and female bathrooms makes a lot of sense, or supports strict immigration polici…

Thinking gay marriage shouldn't be legal is not "conservative", it's plain discriminating. Denying abortions to others is a bit muddier, but somewhat similar - forcing your own, not universally accepted moral code on others isn't exactly the nicest thing to do after all. I don't know much about ACA, so can't say anything about it. With those three out of sight, I'm really interested in what kind of discrimination peo…

> With those three out of sight, I'm really interested in what kind of discrimination people in SFBA tech that are religious or dislike welfare face.

While I have not personally voiced the following opinion I have not because it could easily be called racist. I think the thing that would most improve the prospects of African Americans in the US is that they only have children after being married after 3+ years. Other changes need to be made but that would have a massive positive impact in the next 20-40 years.

Second, read about why David Gudeman was fired. He is the other named party in Jame Damore's lawsuit. He was fired for suggesting that a coworker's interaction with the FBI was not for being Muslim but for other reasons.

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