Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan • Hacker News Board

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#151

Post by Retric » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #24

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

Not disagreeing with you about the economic point, but will kindly disagree with you in terms of spending. Let's just say New York does not have a great history of spending on infrastructure. A recent New York Times piece, mentioned that the price of labor on infrastructure projects is 5 times more expensive then anywhere else in the world. It just blows my mind that people in the NYC area are willing to put up with…

The NYC subway system is a great example of spending on infrastructure over it's history. NYC may not be efficient in terms of spending, but the results tend to be extremely valuable.

Further, it's vastly more expensive to build a road inside a city than in the middle of nowhere. NYC's infrastructure is so extensive it's makes adding more incredibly difficult. That is then compounded by bureaucracy, corruption, and entrenched interests but not more so than most other large city's.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#152

Post by ebikelaw » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

setgree wrote: post #85

Weighing in as a Manhatto who works in midtown -- I welcome this! But another fruitful option is curbing the very worst behavior attendant to driving. Blocking the box -- apparently being policed heavily in Queens! [0] -- is typically addressed (near times square) by having traffic cops in the streets guiding traffic. How about tickets that scale up by orders of magnitude for each repeat offense, i.e. $1 for the firs…

In theory there is a $350 fine for needless honking in New York. In practice this is never enforced, and five years ago the city took down all the "no honking" signs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/29/nyregion/new-york-removes-...

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#153

Post by ForHackernews » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

nikon wrote: post #139

ForHackernews wrote: post #46

The London congestion charge is £11.50, and it works pretty well.

How does it work well? The roads have never been busier.

The percentage of private vehicles on London roads is lower relative to other big cities. London streets are packed with buses, delivery vans, black cabs and minicabs.

https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/demand-mana...

> There was a 37 percent increase in the number of passengers entering the congestion charging zone by bus during charging hours in the first year.

> “Greenhouse gas emission was reduced by 16 per cent from 2002 to 2003. NOX and PM10 within the congestion charging zone decreased by 18 per cent and 22 per cent, respectively, by 2004."

> The scheme generated £122 million net in 2005/2006.

> By 2006, the congestion charging zone had reduced congestion in central London by 26 per cent from its 2002 levels.

> There have been between 40 and 70 percent fewer accidents that resulted in personal injury within the zone.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#154

Post by apendleton » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #145

gamblor956 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., a public education is considered a right. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and so the same considerations don't apply. For example, we already charge drivers for the privilege of driving: annual license fees, mandated insurance, gasoline taxes, etc. Congestion fees/taxes are simply an extension of the costs associated with the driving privilege. With respect to schools, we already have a de facto con…

"In the U.S., a public education is considered a right. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and so the same considerations don't apply." I find this conversation very interesting - first, the thought provoking notion from your parent that supporters of congestion pricing invoke a "libertarian but only for this" exception that they wouldn't apply to other goods like schools. Then your (obvious) reply that driving is…

> the roads themselves are a right, or a public good

Transportation is the public good. Roads are one means of providing it, but there are others, like public transit. It's up to the government to determine how best to provide that public good given existing constraints in funds, time, land area for roads and other transportation infrastructure, environmental considerations, etc. They've apparently determined that the distribution of modes is suboptimal, and are creating economic incentives to shift it and better pay for it, but ultimately people will still be able to get places one way or another.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#155

Post by SamReidHughes » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

rbcgerard wrote: post #143

ebikelaw wrote: post #140

This framing of the issue is typical for the mainstream press, however readers should note that this scheme changes nothing about the cost of driving. It only changes who pays, and how. Today everybody pays the costs associated with driving in Manhattan, even though driving in Manhattan is only practiced by a tiny minority of people. Congestion pricing will shift part of that burden to the people who cause it, which…

Also not noted is the portion of people driving in new york city that do not live in new york city...

They're driving in so that the people living there don't have to drive out.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#156

Post by matwood » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

lazerpants wrote: post #58

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> Why is congestion pricing okay when applying the same philosophy to other matters of public good isn't?

Good question. Will we see sayings like "Save Road Neutrality"? Net neutrality is something that prevents ISPs from practicing a form of congestion pricing (zero rating, charge more for certain packets, etc...), yet the death of net neutrality has been likened to the death of the internet.

One of things I struggle with is aligning my belief system consistently across the board. It definitely leads to some challenging internal conversations.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#157

Post by lewis500 » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

I wrote a history of downtown congestion pricing a few months back: https://medium.com/@lewislehe/a-history-of-downtown-road-pri... Since then I've written it as an academic paper with a lot more material.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#158

Post by baldfat » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #108

baldfat wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time for me to get on the train and go to NYC one way is 2 hours plus, so over 4 hours round trip. It is 50 miles away from my old home. Cost is $27 round trip (off peak) or $38.50 (peak) for the ticket. So taking the train is convenient and I love it but it ruins the rest of my day. Now there was a time when I was 19 and the last train left at 11 PM I the schedule said 1 AM kind of sucked and the next train was at 5…

> Time for me to get on the train and go to NYC one way is 2 hours plus, so over 4 hours round trip. It is 50 miles away from my old home. Cost is $27 round trip (off peak) or $38.50 (peak) for the ticket. So taking the train is convenient and I love it but it ruins the rest of my day. Put another way, with congestion pricing, you have two options: * Pay $27-$38.50 (total) for a four hour round-trip on public transit…

My WHOLE point is the cost is ridiculous. People paying $5000 to $12000 a year to commute to work in NYC. It also makes it more difficult to get around.

I grew up in Danbury, CT and probably 20% of the city works in NYC and I now live in Allentown, PA and know several that work there full time and it takes 30 minutes to get to a train station to NYC.

I had one full time job in Manhattan when I was 18 and commuted everyday on the train. I also would have contracted work to do some music or video production and need to be there around 3 PM until 11 PM to 4 AM. So there are certain things that the $11 fee just makes it harder for people to do work.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#159

Post by imgabe » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #130

rayiner wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. We have congestion pricing for schools. Try buying a house near one of the good elementary schools in DC or Chicago.

That may act functionally as a congestion tax for the home buyer, but instead of the tax going to the state where it can be used to fund other schools it ends up being an arbitrary transfer of wealth to homeowners who bought before the school was built.

Part of it goes to the state in the form of higher property taxes due to the increased property value.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#160

Post by stordoff » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

lazerpants wrote: post #58

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

For me, the difference is that with congestion charges, there is typically another way to achieve the same end - alternative transport methods, or routes which avoid the area in question. I think that's not necessarily true with schooling - even just having to travel further because the nearest school is chargeable may have an impact.

I also think that there are reasons to avoid it with schooling even if the educational outcomes are the same -- I think separating schools into "can/will pay" and "can't/won't pay" would be bad for social integration/cohesion.

Further, a congestion charge applied to road usage is probably, partially, intended to discourage use altogether. That clearly isn't the case for schools.