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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#151

Post by trhway »

swimfar wrote: post #54
u801e wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US also tends to overuse stop signs when a yield (give way) sign would suffice. That is, if there is sufficient visibility of approaching traffic, coming to a complete stop is not necessary to safely yield to any conflicting traffic. Also, coming to a complete stop and then proceeding isn't sufficient to properly yield to approaching traffic. In the end, stop signs end up being treated like yield signs. The only…

In the end, stop signs end up being treated like yield signs. This definitely varies based on where in the US you are. In California almost no one comes to a complete stop. (That's probably why rolling through a stop sign is called a "California Roll"). But in many other parts of the country people do, even if there are no cars around.

>In California almost no one comes to a complete stop. (That's probably why rolling through a stop sign is called a "California Roll").

It probably depends on where in CA. Have been living in Bay Area, mid-Peninsula, for 18 years and i've so far seen most people (and myself included) do complete stops. And just recently saw police stopped and cited a cyclist for the "California Roll" in Los Altos.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#152

Post by aidenn0 »

idoh wrote: post #89
mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

Yeah where I live (the outer sunset neighborhood of San Francisco) it feels like half the stops are 2-way and the other half are 4-way. As a cyclist this is dangerous for me, because if I go through an intersection where I am not stopped but cars are subject to the stop, they will stop, not see me, then start going. So consistency is key!

It happens the other way around too; I had a bicyclist roll through a 2-way where I had no stop and almost cause a collision. They yelled at me, probably thinking it was a 4-way.

It might be my imagination, but I seem to recall nearly all, if not all, 4-ways marked as such with a small rectangular placard below the stop sign in Virginia. I've seen them sometimes in California, but not even at the majority (not really any more common than the opposite sign "Cross traffic does not stop").

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#153

Post by wingerlang »

subroutine wrote: post #83

Could it also have something to do with the wild horses hanging out at the intersection: https://goo.gl/qTSZWJ Perhaps they are not 'wild', I'm just not used to seeing horses near a roadway, without a fence between us. Is this a common thing in England?

There's a stable right next to the intersection https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8609001,-1.4574099,254a,35...

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#154

Post by Karnickel »

nraynaud wrote: post #125
mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

They do exist in Germany.

I won't dispute it because of the general "If you've never seen a black swan, is that proof that none exists? (No)" fallacy, but speaking as a German, I cannot remember having seen one in Germany, ever. So even if one exists it's an exceedingly rare thing.

When I lived in the US I always found it unnecessary that everybody has to stop. In Germany we always have a "main" road and a "secondary" road, and those on the main road don't have to stop. That priority pattern is kept from major roads to tiny roads. Then there's the "right before left" rule when the roads are equal - creating a priority without signs and without "everybody has to stop" rule.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#155

Post by girvo »

hamandcheese wrote: post #134
ryandrake wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a motorist, the 4-way stop is the most disruptive and maddeningly inefficient traffic control device in the municipality's tool chest. How much fuel and how many brake pads are consumed because towns just default to this kind of intersection. There are many better options (as others have listed in this thread) for almost all traffic situations. Always reaching for the 4-way stop is lazy and irritates motorists.

There are a lot of situations where a two way stop would cause traffic to get backed up in the direction of the stop sign. A great example is a 4 way stop at my former high school. Twice a day, everyone came and left causing a bit of a traffic jam. A two way stop would leave people in one direction waiting indefinitely, whereas a 4 way kept things chugging along rather nicely in both directions.

Have a roundabout instead. Easy, safer, and less traffic jams. Seems objectively superior to me.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#156

Post by Piskvorrr »

larkeith wrote: post #106
ajmurmann wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

Having lived near a very similar intersection, also with frequent accidents (it has a 2-way stop with heavy 50-70 mph cross-traffic and frequent left turns, depending on the time of day), cost may be a significant portion of the reason; a neighborhood campaign to replace the 2-way stop with a traffic light fell through due to a >$1 million price tag for adding a light to a countryside road, and it's doubtful a rounda…

Anecdata: fixing frequent accident sites (e.g. 70 kph main road x 50 kph access roads) with traffic lights reduces minor accidents, but there was a major accident on one of them just recently...because "traffic lights be damned, nobody ever comes out that road anyw-BOOM." Traffic lights are a discretionary access control mechanism ("ignore at your discretion"), roundabout is a mandatory access control mechanism.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#157

Post by ScottBurson »

azernik wrote: post #39
djsumdog wrote: post #33

I know most comments indicate that even without the maths, the rolling geography would seem to block the view, and that the best solution would be a 4-way stop, a roundabout or the split road suggestion in the article. But going back to the a-pillar, Volvo did have a concept design with a see through a-pillar. I'm not sure why it never made it to market. I'm guessing it didn't pass their safety requirements? http://w…

Judging from the considerations evinced in this article, pillar strength and thus rollover safety do seem to be limiting factors: https://www.redbook.com.au/car-news/toyota/toyota-patents-tr... It also indicates, however, that the industry is putting real development effort into solving the problem, whether through clever optics like Toyota's efforts, or cameras and screens like Jaguar's concept.

Seems like a negative Fresnel lens in the lower corner of the windshield would suffice. I've had trouble with the A-pillar in my 2015 Prius; I may try this.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#158

Post by QuarterReptile »

It's interesting that they were so focused on CBDR, but then totally dropped the ball when it was time to extend the analogy to overtaking (where you assume to be overtaking if you are >22.5° abaft the other vessel's beam, which is not the case at a 94° angle.)

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#159

Post by GordonS »

aidenn0 wrote: post #149
mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

At least 4-way stops have the same basic rules throughout the US (cars go in order of arrival). 2-way stops do not : Consider the case where the first car to arrive is turning left, but cannot do so due to traffic on the main road. Then a car arrives from the opposite direction going straight. Who is supposed to go first? In some states it's the car that reached the stop sign first, in others it's the car going strai…

When I did my driving lessons many many years ago (UK), I was told that the car turning left would have right of way, because they weren't crossing a carriage way.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#160

Post by Piskvorrr »

tc313 wrote: post #100
ajmurmann wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe the residential area would either 1. Have no signs resulting in the car to the right getting the right of way 2. One road gets a right of way sign and the other road had to yield. I strongly prefer those setups because they are much more fuel efficient. However, I don't think any of that would work in the UD because it would require real driving classes and tests. I had to drive around for close to 20 hours…

Most middle- and upper-class Americans take a driver’s education course (like what you’ve described) prior to receiving their driver’s license. In 10 years it won’t even be necessary because nobody’s going to be driving themselves anyway.

Except pedestrians, bikers, cyclists, etcetera. (Plus you are overestimating the rate of change: I still see horse carriages on the road, 100+ years after the beginning of the car era)

And don't get me started on driver ed in PA, USA: in my case, it consisted of a video, signing an drivers' permit application - and voila, go out there and drive (under supervision). I was shocked, shocked.

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