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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

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Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#151

Post by sol_remmy »

closeparen wrote: post #73
summer_steven wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your making the classic mistake of equating the top 10% European countries like Switzerland and Sweden with the entire United States . Midwestern states, Washington state, and New England have cohesion. Correct your perspective and see that the United States and Europe are fairly equal. Example: Italy has next to no cohesion.

Uh, visit inner-city Milwaukee, Detroit, or Gary sometime. Or, for that matter, some opioid-ravaged population-3000 former logging town in central Wisconsin. Social cohesion seems to evaporate along with jobs in the Midwest as everywhere else.

> some opioid-ravaged population-3000 former logging town in central Wisconsin

You're buying a false narrative. Most midwestern town in states like Montana, the Dakotas, Utah do not have opioid problems. In fact, those states have the happiest and most satisfied people in this country.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#152

Post by sol_remmy »

willvarfar wrote: post #121
Consultant32452 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 19th century in the US was the great age of limited government. It was also the period of the greatest outpouring of charitable giving the world has ever known. This was the period when the first modern nonprofit community hospitals were created. It's when the Carnegie libraries were built, huge numbers of colleges were built. It's when the society of the prevention of cruelty to animals was built, the first inte…

Britain led the way in that enlightenment e.g. The 1848 Public Health Act. Except in Britain it was government that led it. In the US, you had to rely on the hoping that some of the rich did good (today: Gates, Buffet?) whilst all the rest did bad (today: Koch, Trump?)? This blame-the-government thing is uniquely American. In other parts of the world there are big governments that really help their populations thrive…

> This blame-the-government thing is uniquely American. In other parts of the world there are big governments that really help their populations thrive and live safely and comfortably (e.g. I live in Sweden).

You are in top 10% of European countries. You are comparing your filthy rich country to the entire United States. If you want to make a fair comparison, compare Sweden to Washington State.

Also: ask Eastern European countries, Venezuela, Mexico, Russia, African countries, Greece, Cambodia, Myanmar... how much they trust their government. You have no idea how much of a prosperity bubble you are in, in Sweden.

You also seem to be unaware that the United States has more Big Government economic regulations than in Sweden.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#153

Post by rusk »

rusk wrote: post #139
WillPostForFood wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn't why we didn't repair our neighbor's roof (I wouldn't know how either), but why we didn't invite them to sleep at our house while theirs was flooding.

What's this "we" business? I'd definitely invite my neighbours in if their house was flooded and they were out of options. I pay more than 50% tax when all is told. What's wrong with you?

Ah, the first downvotes of the day start at 8am Pacific Time. Go figure.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#154

Post by pm90 »

cmurf wrote: post #111
losteric wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame the Cold War and decades of counter-collectivism propaganda. An entire generation grew up in that atmosphere... they became the nation's teachers and leaders, influencing the opinions of subsequent generations. Game theory shows small changes in behaviors and opinions can have massive downstream impact, as demonstrated by this interactive demo: http://ncase.me/trust/ (HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

This is fair. My dad grew up in the Great Depression in farmland, and the Federal government stepping in is what prevented widespread starvation. And during the dust bowl, again the Federal government came in and taugh everyone better soil management techniques. And from that, most people in that time and place were Democrats and expected that the government helped fund and organize the things that needed to be done…

Its hard for people like me to imagine what Reagan was as a president since his presidency cam before my birth. From what I've read though, it sounds like he had little understanding of how economics and government really worked and played on the fears of whites against the "welfare queen" phenomena, leading to significant defunding of mental health institutions leaving a lot of those people on the streets (i.e. homeless).

If he also caused a step back from large scale public investments... wow, this man has certainly done a lot of damage.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#155

Post by willvarfar »

sol_remmy wrote: post #152
willvarfar wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Britain led the way in that enlightenment e.g. The 1848 Public Health Act. Except in Britain it was government that led it. In the US, you had to rely on the hoping that some of the rich did good (today: Gates, Buffet?) whilst all the rest did bad (today: Koch, Trump?)? This blame-the-government thing is uniquely American. In other parts of the world there are big governments that really help their populations thrive…

> This blame-the-government thing is uniquely American. In other parts of the world there are big governments that really help their populations thrive and live safely and comfortably (e.g. I live in Sweden). You are in top 10% of European countries. You are comparing your filthy rich country to the entire United States. If you want to make a fair comparison, compare Sweden to Washington State. Also: ask Eastern Euro…

First, re wealth: This is laughable. A good software engineer gets $40k/year in Sweden, before tax (which is higher than the US). Sweden is not a filthy rich country, it's a relatively poor country with a good social net and nice people. Perhaps you were thinking Switzerland or Norway, which are both stinking rich whilst also nice?

Second, I was holding Sweden up as an example the you could aim to emulate. "Socialism" the Swedish way is really quite nice. I've lived and moved countries and know many who have moved around the world and to and from the states and I warmly recommend Sweden as the place everyone wishes their home countries was more like ;)

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#156

Post by sol_remmy »

willvarfar wrote: post #155
sol_remmy wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This blame-the-government thing is uniquely American. In other parts of the world there are big governments that really help their populations thrive and live safely and comfortably (e.g. I live in Sweden). You are in top 10% of European countries. You are comparing your filthy rich country to the entire United States. If you want to make a fair comparison, compare Sweden to Washington State. Also: ask Eastern Euro…

First, re wealth: This is laughable. A good software engineer gets $40k/year in Sweden, before tax (which is higher than the US). Sweden is not a filthy rich country, it's a relatively poor country with a good social net and nice people. Perhaps you were thinking Switzerland or Norway, which are both stinking rich whilst also nice? Second, I was holding Sweden up as an example the you could aim to emulate. "Socialism…

> Second, I was holding Sweden up as an example the you could aim to emulate. "Socialism" the Swedish way is really quite nice.

Sweden does not have socialism. There is less economic regulation of private companies than in the United states. Sweden has a freer economy with higher tax rates.

Sweden also has 145% the per capita income of the EU average. And don't forget that excludes poor Eastern European non-EU countries like Ukraine.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#157

Post by cmurf »

stevenwoo wrote: post #52
maxerickson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that the big US squabble in the 1960s was civil rights. Still not resolved (for example a couple of states have just recently been found to be in violation of the Voting Rights Act).

It's kind of like we never satisfactorily resolved the end of slavery, we had to amend the Constitution in the 1960's because of states scamming African Americans of their right to vote because the post Civil War amendments did not outright prevent weasels from making it hard to vote for people of the wrong skin tone. We might have been further along now if Woodrow Wilson hadn't helped resurrect the KKK and started b…

Arguably Lincoln, Johnson, and Grant were too kind to southern aristocrats. What they should have done, historic atrocities as a guide, is executed the entire aristocracy down to the children and divided up the land to the slaves. We'd certainly have been further along now had that happened.

But Grant threatened resignation if pardons were not granted to Lee and all who surrendered at Appomattox. These men were absolutely over the war, and as the papers of the day indicate, most people were too. There really was no meaningful demand for treason trials for the lead generals.

And the sadly, as the Civil War determined slavery was absolutely wrong, it began 100 years of institutionalized 2nd class citizenry based on skin color. The Civil War was not a successful egalitarian enterprise by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#158

Post by pdonis »

croon wrote: post #149
didgeoridoo wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it does. Which part of Thatcher's quote do you see as promoting the idea that we should "suppress our humanity"? Do you see that in there anywhere? And can you imagine why the out-of-context "there is no such thing as society" quote could be construed as a dishonest interpretation of her philosophy?

The rest of the quote just describes the same thing in a euphemism. The quality of your life depends on your own responsibility (meaning you're SooL if you have any disabilities or are born poor/with less opportunities). But your quality of life also depends on someone else freely wanting to help you, so government shouldn't bother with it, which is basically just reiterating objectivism. Some people will help others…

> I think this whole argument is mostly a problem because some people view government as an adversary, instead of the product of populace cooperation.

That's because government is an adversary to anyone who doesn't agree with what it's doing. There is no such thing as "populace cooperation" unless all of the populace agrees on what should be done. That is very rarely the case; most cases of "populace cooperation" are a portion of the populace using the coercive power of the government to force everyone else to do the things that portion of the populace thinks are good ideas.

> that's what policing has always been. Being free to do whatever you want means being free to oppress others.

But if all the government does is "policing" in this sense--preventing people from oppressing others--then almost all of what governments do today would be off the table.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#159

Post by willvarfar »

sol_remmy wrote: post #156
willvarfar wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, re wealth: This is laughable. A good software engineer gets $40k/year in Sweden, before tax (which is higher than the US). Sweden is not a filthy rich country, it's a relatively poor country with a good social net and nice people. Perhaps you were thinking Switzerland or Norway, which are both stinking rich whilst also nice? Second, I was holding Sweden up as an example the you could aim to emulate. "Socialism…

> Second, I was holding Sweden up as an example the you could aim to emulate. "Socialism" the Swedish way is really quite nice. Sweden does not have socialism. There is less economic regulation of private companies than in the United states. Sweden has a freer economy with higher tax rates. Sweden also has 145% the per capita income of the EU average. And don't forget that excludes poor Eastern European non-EU countr…

> Sweden does not have socialism

Well, the Swedes think they have their 'nordic model' version of it. Its been governed by the Social Democrats for almost all the last hundred years. Perhaps their definition differs from yours?

> There is less economic regulation of private companies than in the United states

Crikey, poor you folks! Given how startup-hostile Sweden truly is on the ground, its amazing that Silicon Valley can exist at all if its worse over your side of the pond! ;)

Here, very few people can or would start a company, and startups are rare and happen despite the poor investment. I've met some of the founders of the companies that are often cited like skype and I don't think they started in Sweden rather than the states because Sweden is a less regulated economy. Sweden is part of the EU, and the rules are the EU rules which Britain alleges to have found so over-regulated that they had to leave! ;)

Everything you hear on the news is true unless you have some personal experience of it. So it is with the brush Sweden gets tarred with in the US. There's some crazy left-wingers who think Sweden isn't socialist enough (and their idea of collectivism seems to be towards communism, and Sweden isn't communist), but its mostly the right-wingers thinking Sweden is some immigration hellhole. People in Sweden don't recognize the Sweden portrayed on Fox News.

Interestingly, the coverage of the US that you get on the European media seems to be much more truthful and balanced; I know plenty of US citizens, I've visited an awful lot, I've worked for US companies for years, and the general portrayal of the US life in the media over here seems to ring true.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#160

Post by WillPostForFood »

rusk wrote: post #139
WillPostForFood wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn't why we didn't repair our neighbor's roof (I wouldn't know how either), but why we didn't invite them to sleep at our house while theirs was flooding.

What's this "we" business? I'd definitely invite my neighbours in if their house was flooded and they were out of options. I pay more than 50% tax when all is told. What's wrong with you?

I used "we" to reflect we as a society, as the original article was noting a the general decline of cooperation.
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