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When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

economist.com

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Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#151

Post by nilkn »

hypersoar wrote: post #118
klipt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers make more per hour than doctors, when you factor in benefits like pension and not having huge medical school loans: http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

That graphic assumes that doctors work 59.6 hours per week, which sounds like a number pulled from somewhere, and that teachers work 40 hours per week, which sounds like they're assuming a "standard" work week. But that only makes sense if you assume teachers barely work more than the school day itself, which seems implausible. It also assumes that teachers work 38 weeks per year. That would mean a 3.5-month summer b…

My SO is a high school teacher and it's actually pretty close to reality for her. She has had the entire summer off and still has over two weeks left before she goes back to work.

During the school year, she probably does average more than 40 hours per week, but the excess is flexible and often done at her convenience and at home. That's quite a bit better than a 3AM emergency call to the operating room. And it's never 20 hours of excess.

She also got a signing bonus and all her undergraduate tuition debt paid off as part of the job offer. And she really does get a fully-funded pension.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#152

Post by greenshackle2 »

abritinthebay wrote: post #9

Generally speaking the problem isn't that individuals get paid less. It's systemic issues - which are harder to fix. For example: women as a whole are less likely to be in higher paying jobs in STEM roles. Or CEOs. Or high level Politicians. Why? Multiple reasons but the overall point is there is institutional and social pressure (mostly unconscious or learned) for women to avoid those fields. So the average gets low…

About 20% of the workforce in tech is women.

Less than 20% of students who take the AP Computer Science test are female. [1]

So whatever makes women uninterested in programming happens before college.

Men are much more thing-oriented than women, who are more people-oriented. The size of the effect is "very large", larger than any other difference in personality [2]. Programming is obviously a thing-oriented activity.

Anecdotally, this split seems to happen at a young age - little boys play with cars, little girls play house, etc.

Anecdotally, kids are far more sexist than any adult I know. Try being a 5 year old boy who likes to play with dolls.

(EDIT: maybe not 5 year old. I don't have kids of my own, I forget exactly when kids start thinking the other sex is gross, maybe a bit older)

I don't know how to even begin to fix this, as far as I know children learn most of their culture from each other and older peers, not from their parents or teachers [3].

I'm willing to bet that most of the problem comes way upstream of the workplace. The tech industry can do as much hand-wringing as they want over sexism in the workplace, it's not gonna fix the fact that adolescent girls are choosing to not take the AP Comp Sci test.

[1] https://thinkprogress.org/not-a-single-female-student-took-t...

[2] http://sci-hub.cc/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00320.x

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#153

Post by Quanttek »

oldboyFX wrote: post #11

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

> If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits?

THis is not how it works. at all. There's not some cabal taht decided they should pay women less. Instead, the larger culture prootes behaviors and attitudes and devalues others that, as a consequence, lead to women getting paid less. Those are unconscious biases that influence hiring or promoting decisions. One example: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09585192.2015.107...

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#154

Post by x220 »

Quanttek wrote: post #135

I hate these kinds of statistics because all they say is "If we discount all the things creating the pay gap, basically no pay gap exists". Industries typically inhabited by women getting paid less? Predominantly male/female industries suddnely decreasing/increasing in average pay when women/men enter it? Women having a lesser likelihood of getting promoted? Women having a lower likelihood of getting hired for higher…

The purpose of the article is to refute the claim that "women get paid significantly less for the same work as men". It does not try to prove that there is no discrimination in hiring or promoting. Most people think that the pay gap is as simple as managers deciding to pay women less, which is wildly inaccurate and nearly never happens, as the article shows. It is up for debate what has the larger impact on what jobs women take and how far they advance: their personal preferences or discrimination.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#155

Post by x220 »

jmull wrote: post #59

It hardly seems like a fair measure of pay gap if you don't take into account disparities in promotions. At the same level, company and function the pay gap is small. Yet, women are stuck in lower-ranked positions in greater proportion for some reason.

Perhaps it is because many women put their career advancement on hold if they choose to have children?

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#156

Post by whiddershins »

oldboyFX wrote: post #11

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

It's interesting to consider that many of these lower paying jobs - such as teachers/caregivers are very hard to tie performance to profits.

Therefore the market forces are different or nonexistent, who hires a $500,000/year rock star grade school teacher? Even if such a thing exists and has real impact.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#157

Post by asidiali »

honestoHeminway wrote: post #110
onewhonknocks wrote: post #3

When adjusted for factors such as hiatuses for raising kids, the answer is 'no.'

I sometimes wonder, what is it that makes those dull office jobs so much more important. I mean, your kids are your own best bet on eternety. Everything else crumbles to dust - by now often in your lifetime. The device you program for today, your son/daugther wont even see in a museum. So what if its not a caricature harmony like on stock photo? So what if they have completely diffrent plans? Its life, its not machin…

That's some deep shit right there.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#158

Post by hnnsj »

mrkurt wrote: post #89
darawk wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Women have the same opportunity to negotiate that men do. The fact that they choose to negotiate less is on them.

Do you agree that negotiation skills don't matter for most jobs? And do you agree that people should be compensated based on the value they bring to a job? Because sexism or no, I think it's a tremendous problem when people get ahead for completely tangential reasons to their job performance and skills.

How is it sexism is sex is not a factor?

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#159

Post by Hnrobert42 »

Quanttek wrote: post #135

I hate these kinds of statistics because all they say is "If we discount all the things creating the pay gap, basically no pay gap exists". Industries typically inhabited by women getting paid less? Predominantly male/female industries suddnely decreasing/increasing in average pay when women/men enter it? Women having a lesser likelihood of getting promoted? Women having a lower likelihood of getting hired for higher…

But the article didn't say you have to discount "all the things." The title did, but it was a poor title. The article notes many of the same reasons as you as contributing to the overall pay gap.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#160

Post by abritinthebay »

greenshackle2 wrote: post #152
abritinthebay wrote: post #9

Generally speaking the problem isn't that individuals get paid less. It's systemic issues - which are harder to fix. For example: women as a whole are less likely to be in higher paying jobs in STEM roles. Or CEOs. Or high level Politicians. Why? Multiple reasons but the overall point is there is institutional and social pressure (mostly unconscious or learned) for women to avoid those fields. So the average gets low…

About 20% of the workforce in tech is women. Less than 20% of students who take the AP Computer Science test are female. [1] So whatever makes women uninterested in programming happens before college. Men are much more thing-oriented than women, who are more people-oriented. The size of the effect is "very large", larger than any other difference in personality [2]. Programming is obviously a thing-oriented activity.…

I agree. I said basically that?

The culture problem in tech is not the cause, it’s just the end symptom of many things - including what you’re taking about.

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