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Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

telegraph.co.uk

151–160 of 177 posts

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#151
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with UBI versus, let's say, single payer, is that buyers compete and therefore drive up price. In short they "defect" from the price the other buyers pay. Think about patio and his posts in the past about increasing your rates. That's how it happens. When you have insurance, then the buyer and seller can join forces to raise prices - that's called a moral hazard.

buyers competing is OK, though, right? I was under the impression that the justification for UBI was to attack the ability to pay, which some people lack, rather than the outcome of what they pay for. The "problem" that UBI has vs single payer is that it is not creating a command economy, but leveling the playing field in a capitalist one. If you want a single payer, you don't want a UBI, you want communism. If you w…

Not really.

Communism is more than just "to everyone according to his need". It is also "from everyone according to his ability." And it talks about collective ownership of the means of production, and other stuff. To a great extent, the public stock market is collective ownership of corporations, which is far better than what Marx had in mind.

BUT

This is not about labels. This is about designing systems that work, vs systems that have major issues.

The major issue with UBI is inflation. There is no way around it. Everyone gets X every day. This X is spent into the economy, primarily on necessities. They are not sensitive to price increases because X is indexed to inflation, otherwise what's the point?

So, stores raise prices and people go ahead and pay anyway. And so every sector competes with every other to raise prices before the other sector takes more of the UBI money than they do.

It is a moral hazard.

Now, with single payer systems, the doctor has a choice: accept Medicare, with the prices it offers, or not. It's attractive to accept Medicare because you get a lot of patients who would otherwise not pay you.

This DOES NOT MEAN the consumer can't choose the doctor, school, or anything else. It just means there is collective bargaining for prices.

And btw you benefit from this all the time. Look at Amazon squeezing publishers - stories on HN all the time about this. Or Apple's App Store having rules for developers. Or Google's rules for web publishers, making them make responsive sites. And so on.

Libertarians think "the government" is just one entity. But every organization has a management structure. Eventually we may have decentralized protocols like scuttlebutt etc. that change this paradigm. But for now, we have organizations all over the place and when most consumers are on Facebook, etc. they do in fact squeeze publishers.

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#152
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may see it as funny, I see it as refactoring. If we try it in a different way and end up with the same solution, we know it's there not because somebody 60 years ago wanted to make a quick buck out of it and then it stuck because regulations are forever.

And in the meantime a bunch of people get badly burned.

Well, if you talk about Bitcoin etc., it's a gold rush situation - high risk/high reward situation which is strictly voluntary, so I see zero issue with that, on the contrary, I see it as excellent experiment which, unlike many other social experiments, won't bother you at all unless you opt in.

With Uber/Lyft it's trickier since while you are welcome to not use it, it may have implications which are beyond direct users of the services. Still, I think the effects are relatively small and not disproportional to what you could encounter without them - i.e. how badly you can be burned there? Surely, you can have a bad driver - same could happen with a Taxi. A bad Uber driver could create a bad situation on the road - so can any other bad driver, nothing new here. So marginal costs are pretty low here. Not to defend bad drivers - those should be dealt with appropriately - but the additional "burn" that would be caused is IMHO pretty low.

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#153

During a fare, an uber driver told me that when he goes to an area with lots of drivers, he will turn off his app for a minute or so to artificially decrease the number of drivers in the area. If this is practiced by multiple drivers repeatedly, the result can cause a surge. He told me that he does this, and, that he holds training sessions where he teaches this practice to other drivers, among other things. I do not…

It would be pretty easy to build a service to coordinate this. (And of course Uber would whine about it even though that's exactly the kind of thing they do all the time)

What about the free-rider problem? Doesn't this just make it that much more profitable for drivers who keep their phones on?

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot I don't understand about Uber. What's the Uber business case? Is there enough profit in taxi services around the world to justify their valuation and financial losses? Do they hope to recoup through a future monopoly? Tracking Data? Self-driving vehicle fleets?

Originally it was the idea that an on-demand app was going to revolutionize taxis. Now it seems to be, avoiding regulation for fun & profit.

Well, minus the profit part.

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#155
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

buyers competing is OK, though, right? I was under the impression that the justification for UBI was to attack the ability to pay, which some people lack, rather than the outcome of what they pay for. The "problem" that UBI has vs single payer is that it is not creating a command economy, but leveling the playing field in a capitalist one. If you want a single payer, you don't want a UBI, you want communism. If you w…

Not really. Communism is more than just "to everyone according to his need". It is also "from everyone according to his ability." And it talks about collective ownership of the means of production, and other stuff. To a great extent, the public stock market is collective ownership of corporations, which is far better than what Marx had in mind. BUT This is not about labels. This is about designing systems that work,…

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote, but, IMO UBI is not a moral hazard generator. Just because you get the money doesn't incentivize you to not care about prices. It may make you less sensitive to prices, but it will need to be budgeted nonetheless. If it were infinite UBI, then yes, a free source of infinite money would create a situation where buyers are shielded from rising prices and thus don't care about them.

UBI is NOT insurance, though, and so it is difficult to argue that a limited income, even if free, creates a moral hazard that would truly cause people to no longer budget for things, any more than a salary makes you price insensitive. The quantity of the UBI seems to be the relevant factor, I guess.

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he says the price isn't sustainable I think what he means is that investor money has kept Uber fares below costs, which is not sustainable.

I wonder if getting rid of the drivers would be enough to make Uber profitable? It would at least fix the gaming of surge prices.

That is what they're betting the farm on; the bigger question is whether they'll be able to pull that off (and pull it off fast enough).

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#157
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in the meantime a bunch of people get badly burned.

Well, if you talk about Bitcoin etc., it's a gold rush situation - high risk/high reward situation which is strictly voluntary, so I see zero issue with that, on the contrary, I see it as excellent experiment which, unlike many other social experiments, won't bother you at all unless you opt in. With Uber/Lyft it's trickier since while you are welcome to not use it, it may have implications which are beyond direct us…

I'd say the big externalities affecting non-customers are increased congestion and a questionable insurance arrangement. There are also the handful of cases of sexual assault and similar that have happened that arguably could have been avoided with background checks, but perhaps the incidence of these is small enough that you could write it off.

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"I think it'd be hard to actually quantify the impact." You would need Uber/Lyft's help I believe. But I think if you combined the Uber/Lyft data with data that the DOT keeps it would be pretty easy to quantify the impact. I think that was NYC's point as well. But unfortunately the mayor had received money from a taxi lobbying effort which allowed Uber to cry foul and make accusations of protectionism.[1] One metric…

Well... what incentive do they have to hand it over?

I would think the incentive would be to play nice with the city and the TLC that regulates the industry. I think they will have to do so eventually anyway.

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... what incentive do they have to hand it over?

I would think the incentive would be to play nice with the city and the TLC that regulates the industry. I think they will have to do so eventually anyway.

Yeah but if it's not flattering that might not be worth it.

Re: Uber drivers gang up to cause surge pricing, research says

#160
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so naive. I've been asked that before by a Taxi driver in NYC I believe on my way to the airport and just said "Uh, shouldn't you?" I never realized what they were up to.

In many places there are fixed prices for rides between major points, like city center->airport, etc. Not the case in NYC?

There are for certain airports. A yellow cab will be cheaper than an Uber in some cases especially when surge pricing is in play.
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