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How to Disagree

paulgraham.com

151–160 of 238 posts

Re: How to Disagree

#151
post #89
post #77

Well, the main problem with this essay is that sometimes mocking someone's argument is the best way to disagree with it. The parody of PG's last essay on having a boss was highly effective at this: http://www.jsequeira.com/blog/2008/03/24.html Is this a lower form of disagreement than DH6? Most definitely, however, the English language has a rich tradition of satire and mockery going back at least as far as Jonathan…

I thought about the relation to parody, and the answer is that it's an orthogonal issue. Parody can be DH1 or DH6 depending on how well it's done.

I'd say that (good) parody and satire frequently make use of DH1-4 in order to effect an argument that's usually at DH6. It's the matter of creating straw men or ad hominem attacks which are implicit criticisms on the actual content of the argument.

Re: How to Disagree

#152
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_buffalo_incident

Sometimes when you shout "shut up, you water buffalo", people misunderstand.

It might have been more effective to simply shout "shut up" and leave out the part that can be misconstrued or misunderstood.

In other words, calling programmers "lions", referring to "zoos", and anointing a certain set of activities as "natural".. do these things help or harm the underlying message in the essay?

Re: How to Disagree

#153

Very nice post, thank you! Here's something to think about. According to Aristotle's Rhetoric, a person making a point to an audience has three things to offer: -- Ethos -- who they are and why they speak with authority. -- Pathos -- empathy with the audience. -- Logos -- the substance of the argument. So, an opponent can try to undermine any of these three. Undermining a person's ethos can be nasty "yo' momma" style…

I don't think that undermining the speaker is a valid way of arguing. It is irrelevant who states the argument; an argument is as equally as strong whoever makes it. I can copy and paste another's argument verbatim, and then change all the "I" references to "person X" references, and the argument would be identical.

What you can do is refute evidence. So if the speaker presents one of their own claims as evidence, you can sometimes invalidate that claim by undermining the speaker's pathos and ethos.

NOTE: When I say valid, I mean it in terms of determining what is correct, not what convinces people.

Re: How to Disagree

#154
i am loving this razor sharp thinking and critique; it must be emblematic of the hacker type but i appreciate it. i am from the music world where everything is fuzzy and sort of. i mean, who writes a critique of disagreements? coolest thing ever. nice contribution to elevation of species.

Re: How to Disagree

#155
People aren't defined by their arguments. They are defined by their perspective. Winning arguments change no perspectives (unless you are arguing with saints).

The reason they don't is that ideas are not trees. There is no root node. We are not deductive thinkers. We do not trace out the implications of ideas to their ends because they have no ends.

More often, we learn ideas that ripple a little in the neighborhood while the rest of our knowledge remains unchanged. Further, in some cases, the evidence may be mixed, and our idea graph won't change at all.

Kuhn would probably say that there is no way for a scientific revolutionary to argue with a conventional scientist because the purpose of a revolution is to change the context to a different set of concerns, a different language, a different problem.

Einstein couldn't argue with Newtonian physics in Newtonian terms. The point of general relativity isn't to refute the central point of Newtonian physics (whether you think that's the inverse square law or gravitation or the laws of motion, etc.). You might say Einstein was "refuting" some naive conceptions of space and energy, but no one had proven they were naive before he exposed them.

Einstein provided a fertile perspective that allowed others to see the old science and data in a new way. But this has nothing to do with winning arguments. It's DH{NaN}.

Acting like Einstein's work is a rung up the ladder to Final Physical Knowledge is a positivist view akin to the belief that evolution is creating the ubermensch (in some objective sense). There are lots of local minima out there. There is always another perspective to take on the same data.

Refutation should be reserved for stuff that's obvious to clear-thinking people.

Of course, that begs the question...

Re: How to Disagree

#156

Great article. Paul provides a useful illumination of the issue. The great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas operated at level DH6, often with devastating effect. He would formulate and state the argument he planned to refute with clarity, depth, accuracy, and precision. He often would make his opponent's case better than the opponent had done! I believe his secret was that he was humbly interested in the truth wher…

Aquinas wasn't quite so thorough in all his works. It's mostly the Summa Theologica which is so rigorous. I agree with the application however, for one to brook disagreement with another, one should usually understand the subject better than that person. This implies understanding your opponent's arguments better than your opponent. If don't understand your opponents arguments better than he, who are you to say that he is wrong in making them?

(trivia about Aquinas: his handwriting was so bad, that there are only about 10 people or so in the world today that can read it.)

Re: How to Disagree

#157
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but saying that a senator would vote for a senate pay raise because they're a senator is not an ad hominem attack. This argument is saying that there's a conflict of interest regarding what they're requesting; that's not a personal attack that has nothing to do with the argument, which is what an ad hominem attack is.

Re: How to Disagree

#158

Very nice post, thank you! Here's something to think about. According to Aristotle's Rhetoric, a person making a point to an audience has three things to offer: -- Ethos -- who they are and why they speak with authority. -- Pathos -- empathy with the audience. -- Logos -- the substance of the argument. So, an opponent can try to undermine any of these three. Undermining a person's ethos can be nasty "yo' momma" style…

I don't think that undermining the speaker is a valid way of arguing. It is irrelevant who states the argument; an argument is as equally as strong whoever makes it. I can copy and paste another's argument verbatim, and then change all the "I" references to "person X" references, and the argument would be identical. What you can do is refute evidence. So if the speaker presents one of their own claims as evidence, yo…

Aristotle was speaking in terms of what convinces people. This is only his 'Rhetoric' however. His 'Logic' deals with correct arguments.

However, I do think that there are cases where an ad hominem is correct however. If someone's argument is based on his own authority, and his authority is widely acknowledged, then the only way to attack the argument is to attack the arguer. One example is the repeated misuse of Einstein as an authority om things like economics or theology.

Re: How to Disagree

#159

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but saying that a senator would vote for a senate pay raise because they're a senator is not an ad hominem attack. This argument is saying that there's a conflict of interest regarding what they're requesting; that's not a personal attack that has nothing to do with the argument, which is what an ad hominem attack is.

It's an ad hominem attack if you are attempting to refute an argument they made for the pay raise.

For example, if a senator gave a speech detailing why senators needed more money and someone dismissed the arguments based on the senator's sentatorness rather the quality of the argument's themselves.

Also, an ad hominem is not merely a 'personal attack.' For example, an insult is not an ad hominem. An ad hominem is an attempt to discredit an argument based on qualities of the arguer instead of the argument itself. Pointing out a conflict of interest is an ad hominem attack if you are using it to discredit an argument.

Re: How to Disagree

#160
Paul, I like your DH scale. Something too little appreciated: the DH1 argument: Dr XXX is wrong because he's a tool of the YYY industry is an "ad hominem" argument but so is Dr XXX is right because he's a Distinguished Prof at ZZZ University.

People who can't understand an argument are reduced to "who ya gonna believe?" Then we begin to hear about sources of funding, motivation, nationality, religion etc.

I'm glad to see that you place all these arguments down near the name-calling level.

I enjoy your essays, Bill Drissel Grand Prairie, TX

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