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Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

where.coraline.codes

151–160 of 572 posts

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#151

If you're ever put on a PIP, get out -- it's a sign someone in the company doesn't want you there. I've never heard of a PIP working out and both the company and employee being happy -- maybe you only hear about the bad cases, but a PIP often seems to me like a cover your ass plan on the part of the company. They want to get rid of a person, but they're afraid of getting sued, so a PIP is a way to document why a pers…

"I've never heard of a PIP working out and both the company and employee being happy " At least where i've worked, they work out about 50% of the time. That tracks with the PIP's i've been involved in. I can also give you anecdotes if you like, but i'm not sure you care. "This practice seems pretty common in California, but given California is an at-will employment state, I'm not even sure why. " I'd agree plenty of…

> I can also give you anecdotes if you like, but i'm not sure you care.

Not the GP, but I care, and would like to hear them.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, as an organization, Github can and should do better than that, and I think here that it did not. Consider if the situations were reversed. What if some white male engineer was simply being terse in an email to her. Might she attribute it to rudeness, sexism, or transphobia? If the company fired the engineer would you be arguing that she should be a bit more charitable in her interpretations? It can be very…

> Consider if the situations were reversed. What if some white male engineer was simply being terse in an email to her. Might she attribute it to rudeness, sexism, or transphobia? If the company fired the engineer would you be arguing that she should be a bit more charitable in her interpretations? These are good questions, and I don't know the answers. I'd like to tell you how I'd react, but I think given the curren…

>I can see how her comments could be perceived as rude, or "unempathetic." I cannot see how - especially at Github, a place not known for cultural sensitivity - they were firable.

I agree, I think this is where the "fishy"-ness I spoke of earlier comes in. Giving the benefit of the doubt to Coraline, there is definitely more at play than being rude in a few emails. I just feel uncomfortable jumping from an individual account to broadly concluding an organization is sexist.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#153
post #35

"I was well aware of GitHub's very problematic past, from its promotion of meritocracy in place of a management system" This person mentions multiple times that meritocracy is a bad idea, that promotion or reward based on merit should be done away with in order to promote diversity, e.g., racial/gender-based quotas. This is a person who does not view competence as the primary trait to select for within a market, and…

I strongly disagree with your assessment that this person doesn't value competency, at least based off of her dislike of meritocracy. Meritocracy is not a replacement for proper management, and without proper management the idea of "meritocracy" reverts back to just being a popularity contest. If you don't have a good management system in place then identifying who "merits" promotion is extremely difficult and is oft…

> If you don't have a good management system in place then identifying who "merits" promotion is extremely difficult and is often based not on how someone performs but how much they are liked by the decision makers of the company.

Worth noting that a typical "management system" simply re-enforces these "likeability" biases with a bunch of phony paperwork.

(Not that I didn't like this article. I came here to the comments kind of puzzled why it was flagged.)

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#154

There's a couple of issues that stand out to me: Github is engaging in risky behaviour by reaching out to individuals (specifically activists) for hire explicitly on the basis of "diversity" and trying to incorporate those individuals in a highly merit-based environment. Secondly, Coraline seems to think that human relationships are a one way street: that she is entitled to be direct and even confrontational or insen…

I didn't get the one-way street at all. In my (limited) experience, one-way streets like this happen because the other party either never starts talking to you, or because they shut down the conversation at some point.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the full article, it strikes me how you can be "inclusive" if you are constantly highlighting the differences. The fact, for example, she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by white males. Or the blog post on her first deliverable, rewritten by a white male. I don't see what could be the benefit to point that out in every sentence: that all of that is made in malice because of gender and race? If I ha…

> she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by white males. I didn't see this and can't find it. Can you point me at where this happens?

> For my first few pull requests, I was getting feedback from literally dozens of engineers (all of whom were male) on other teams, nitpicking the code I had written. One PR actually had over 200 comments from 24 different individuals.

First paragraph under the section "Collaboration"

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the full article, it strikes me how you can be "inclusive" if you are constantly highlighting the differences. The fact, for example, she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by white males. Or the blog post on her first deliverable, rewritten by a white male. I don't see what could be the benefit to point that out in every sentence: that all of that is made in malice because of gender and race? If I ha…

> she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by white males. I didn't see this and can't find it. Can you point me at where this happens?

[...] For my first few pull requests, I was getting feedback from literally dozens of engineers (all of whom were male) on other teams, nitpicking the code I had written. [...] Shortly after this happened to me, the code review feature was prioritized. This functionality was rolled out internally pretty quickly. From that point on I didn't get dogpiled anymore [...]

Re: who cares if they were all male? If I open a PR and I get dozens of feedback, either they are legit feedback or not. Or maybe they are all sexist comments, that you should absolutely report. But it sounds like the "all of who were male" wants to imply a specific subtext, but the accusation is neither explicit nor provides any justifications. Saying it in other words: if a colleague would say "I am getting feedback from literally dozens of engineers (all of who were black women)", wouldn't that raise an eyebrow or more?

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#158
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... she didn’t. She pointed out that the question was a bad one, and that the question itself (not the writer of the question, just the question) was transphobic. Further, she provided the straightforward, no none sense feedback that most people here advocate for, especially when the issues of someone like Linus’ gruffness and straight up meanness comes up. Here we have a story of someone doing just that, without…

Whatever the perceived tone, what Caroline didn't do was suggest improvements, provide examples. It was a teachable moment.

She absolutely did. She said specifically that it should be a separate question.

At some point, I have to wonder whether or not the people who are complaining about these easily debunked things are discussing the topic in good faith.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#159

The main thing I've taken away from the whole github situation is that, as a tech company, you should just entirely stay away from public involvement in the social justice sphere. That doesn't mean exclusively hiring white men and sending out Kalanick-style emails; it means keeping your work environment as professional and politically neutral as possible unless absolutely necessary. My employer does a good job of thi…

Reading the full article, it strikes me how you can be "inclusive" if you are constantly highlighting the differences. The fact, for example, she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by white males. Or the blog post on her first deliverable, rewritten by a white male. I don't see what could be the benefit to point that out in every sentence: that all of that is made in malice because of gender and race? If I ha…

  > The fact, for example, she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by
  > white males. Or the blog post on her first deliverable, rewritten by a
  > white male.

I really feel like you are injecting your own issues into this. For example, here is an excerpt that you're referring to:

  > However, it soon became apparent that this promising start would not last
  > for long. For my first few pull requests, I was getting feedback from
  > literally dozens of engineers (all of whom were male) on other teams,
  > nitpicking the code I had written. One PR actually had over 200 comments
  > from 24 different individuals.
First off, nowhere does she reference the race of the engineers that were commenting on the PRs. The fact that you jump into this talking about white males this and white males that, seems like you are bringing your own baggage with you into this discussion.

Secondly, it seems more like her issue was that she felt like she was getting dogpiled on via the PR. I've never worked anywhere that I felt the need to start critiquing the code of people from other teams who were working on systems that I might not even have experience with. It especially seems not very inclusive to make a new hire feel like she is immediately on the defensive. 200 comments seems excessive. (Granted we can't see the content so it may not have been all unjustified, but still).

Here is the other excerpt that you reference:

  > The post was submitted for editorial review. It was decided that the tone
  > of what I had written was too personal and didn't reflect the voice of the
  > company. The reviewer insisted that any mention of the abuse vector that
  > this feature was closing be removed. In the midst of my discussions with
  > the editorial team, trying to reach a compromise, a (male) engineer from
  > another team completely rewrote the blog post and published it without
  > talking to me.
Again, there is a lack of reference to whether or not the male is white or not. We can assume that he is probably white, but there isn't even a hint as to his actual race.

Also, like the previous excerpt the gender of the person is referenced to drive home the whole 'inclusiveness' angle. The real issue here isn't that the offender is male, but that he apparently went around her while her content was tied up in editorial review. That seems like a total dick move, IMHO.

To be fair, it's possible that to also blame the managerial systems in place for allowing this too. How was this person able to publish the blog post while a "competing" version of the post was held up in editorial review (though presumably not fully rejected)? Was this a mistake due to poor communication?

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought her positive reaction on being placed into such an obviously intentionally isolated team was odd. A team of people just so, without the undesirables, their own org structure with dedicated PMs, QCs, and backlog. The way things fell apart when that cocoon was breached -- both from within and without -- was entirely predictable. How was this supposed to work in the first place? What did they hope to accomplis…

This happened to me at my last job - there were a bunch of us in a celebrated cocoon, and then everything fell apart when it was breached. It wasn't about undesirable people, it was about undesirable management influences; whiplash from constantly changing projects and reorgs, moving goal posts, etc etc. It definitely came with it's fair share of problems. We were trying to isolate ourselves from the craziness in the…

It sounds like you felt it was a net-positive experience. Is there anything you'd want to do differently next time (i.e. to avoid the crash)?
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