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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#151

Post by quantum_state »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

It is time to cut it off this type of brainwash mumbo jumbo .. when other people have different opinion, it is simply not civilized to invoke such an argument ..

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#152

Post by caretoomuch »

warcher wrote: post #129
caretoomuch wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions to redress these imbalances I agree all of it until "to redress these imbalances", i.e. letting the local elite rule Hong Kong was a deliberate decision by Beijing. Back then (before/during the hand-over to China), nobody knew how it's gonna work. And as of now, that decision turned out to be a fai…

I dunno, generally the best argument for democracy is when things come out of balance, there is a mechanism to adjust how things work without violent revolution (which generally necessitates a greater level of destruction than is advisable). Since the general impression of Hong Kong democracy is "yeah, we'll let you vote, but the party is going to have the last word" it's hard to imagine a scenario whereby the status…

You are not wrong. Nobody would argue that reasoning. But seeing what populism could leads to, and based on my experience in Hong Kong, I'm just a bit cynical that the reality probably won't turn out to be what it "should have been".

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#153

Post by justicezyx »

carapace wrote: post #119
sho wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping verbal exchange of knowledge. The june fourth incident, as they call it, is very well known and every year on that day there's a flurry of awareness activism, swiftly (but not really punitively) repressed. In my opinion it will actually get better in time. Th…

I know you said you don't want to start a "game of whataboutism", but I've been thinking about the suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. No one in America will repress you, punitively or otherwise, for talking openly about, for example, the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male.” This is a horrifying and deeply shameful thing, tears well up in my eyes…

I am not sure you are really replying to my comment. I said nothing about CCP being what, I am defending Chinese people's behavior, and rebuttal the ideas that Chinese people are a group of "extreme communism supporter who happily enjoy the value of freedom and hide their true color".

CCP does much worse things than you western people even remotely understood. That does not mean that Chinese people are spies/extremist/...

> suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind.

This is correct and true. And governments around world are learning quickly. That's the part we all should be aware.

> Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested.

I am not sure where you got this "fact"... This is a well-known fabricated lie of the Falun Gong leaders... Again, I cannot prove that no such thing, just as I cannot proven that there wasn't human organ harvesting in US. I can only say that all the sources to claim the existence of such thing is not true.

> The people who comprise the CCP are scary.

CCP has 80MM members. Please do not randomly exaggerate fact... If 80MM people are skilled practitioner of CCP tricks, China will already be the master of the world before 1987...

> What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people?

No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either.

> To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real?

Not sure what do you mean by "false reality".

> The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing!

No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to.

> And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!?

Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party.

> But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion?

Interesting. If you read CCP's propaganda, Taiping Rebellion is proclaimed as the righteous movement of the people to overthrow a corrupted government.

While in reality, Taiping Rebellion is more like a group of manic that causes havoc across the nation. It brings no advance to anything, and killed 10MM+ people. And is considered a setback to the overall progress of Chinese society.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#154

Post by narrator »

FabHK wrote: post #133
caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

It goes both ways, though - the tacit deal is basically that the HK tycoons do not challenge the Chinese Communist Party's monopoly on power, and the CCP doesn't challenge the HK tycoons' economic monopolies. But, all in all, I agree. As I've written in another thread: The grievances of HK's population are real: a political and business establishment dominated by property tycoons (and increasingly mainland Chinese po…

>Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures:

I am really waiting for a NY Times article that has some angle about what China can teach us, not what they should learn from us.

For the last 30 years we have been getting continuous dispatches that Communism with Chinese characteristics will fail into economic collapse, that it's an enormous bubble, that the economy can't grow without democracy, that Hong Kong needs to be a model of democracy for the rest of China, etc. This mainly comes out of the "official narrative" mouth pieces known as the New York Times and the Washington Post. Whenever I see nytimes.com in the sourcee I'm always thinking, ok what's the new angle that everyone's supposed to believe now? It would be better if they just gave the byline to someone at the State Department or the CIA.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#155

Post by khuey »

sirkneeland wrote: post #94
abiox wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

afaik, british control derived from a land lease. the lease ended per the time table in the lease. as such nobody was 'kicked out'.

The British had wanted to continue their period of rule in Hong Kong as the expiration date neared. It was a subject of negotiation between China and the UK in the 1980s. They wanted British rule or even some kind of joint administration. Even Thatcher (hardly a shrinking violet when it came to using force to get her way) couldn't get a deal to continue British rule in Hong Kong. China made it perfectly clear that th…

It's worth noting that the Qing Dynasty ceded Hong Kong Island and Kowloon to the UK in perpetuity. The lease was for the the New Territories, without which it was generally accepted the city would not be viable. Hong Kong was (and still is) dependent on the Chinese mainland for imports of natural resources such as fresh water, so if the Chinese decided to play hardball the British had few options. And that's not even considering the possibility of China deciding to retake Hong Kong by force.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#156

Post by larrysalibra »

contingencies wrote: post #135

I just crossed back to Shenzhen from Hong Kong yesterday. A few random observations... In HK, a lot of the taxi drivers are old guys who can barely read, don't speak English or mandarin, and are a real hassle to deal with unless you are a Cantonese speaker. A lot of the taxis have weird fare manipulation lookup tables instead of correct metering. Although the mass-transit oriented stored value card, Octopus, was esta…

Right on about Hong Kong taxi drivers. They also tend to be racist opting to skip non-Chinese looking passengers.

> A lot of the taxis have weird fare manipulation lookup tables instead of correct metering.

The fare table is because the Transport Department raised taxi fares on April 9th and taxis that haven't had their meters adjusted are required to use the fare table. http://www.td.gov.hk/en/publications_and_press_releases/pres...

> You literally can't top it up with anything smaller than HKD50 (USD$9) even if your fare costs less and you only have small denomination local money.

This is the same as Shenzhentong card in Shenzhen which can't be loaded with less than CNY50 at a reload machine. If your fare costs less than HK$50 and you don't have more cash, buy a single trip ticket. If you really want to pay with Octopus, top up your Octopus card with HK$50 and get a refund of the value after your trip.

Those of us that live here in Hong Kong never have to deal with adding value to our Octopus card because we can link it to our Hong Kong-issued credit cards.

> If you ask 20 odd Hong Kong banks about cross-border RMB payment APIs (HK is supposed to be a financial center, after all) not a single bank can offer you one.

Mainland China has capital controls - that is why transacting in RMB cross border is difficult. Banks aren't allowed to offer that service.

> just to open a regular bank account is now so difficult standard waits can exceed 2-3 months (and success is far from guaranteed)

You are right...the difficulty in opening a bank account is a huge problem for business in Hong Kong.

> So what does HK still have to offer?

* civil society * amazing mountains & beaches * great food * excellent sports infrastructure * public transit that is a pleasure to use * no capital gains, interest, dividends, import, VAT, or sales taxes. * territorial taxation (Hong Kong residents are only taxed on income sourced from Hong Kong) * great people both local and from abroad * ubiquitous gigabit fiber to home for < US$30/month. 10 gigabit fiber to home available in many locations.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#157

Post by vinceguidry »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

Beijing never intended to let HK go forever under it's own leadership. The CCP wishes to keep as much of Hong Kong's economic muscle intact as they can, but political control of the area is the eventual goal and is far more important to it than economic growth.

The Chinese will not allow HK to become a threat to the Chinese way of life as determined by the CCP. They will loot the city of its riches, then bring it into line. The writing was on the wall for HK from day one of their transition back to Chinese rule.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#158

Post by princetontiger »

Banthum wrote: post #121
and0 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about the Japanese constitution being written by the Allies. Without Allies defeating Japan, though, they'd have taken over large parts of Asia and could very well be more prosperous / free than they are now. I don't think Imperial Japan was any less economically free than Gilded Age Europe, but I'd have to look it up. I'm curious how various atrocities committed by Anglo-Saxon nations fit into your worl…

You're implicitly comparing western cultures to an imaginary perfect culture, or to modern free (Western) countries. This is not reasonable. You should compare cultures that share similar options: those living around the same time in geographically similar regions. >I feel like most people act pretty much the same way and organize themselves in the same way, when prosperity permits. Saudi Arabia vs Canada today. Japa…

Exactly. I've been to police states. They aren't fun.

Look at the state of countries. Most are in chaos 100% of the time. France went through a huge revolution in the 1700 and 1800s and still kept First World status. Chinese people dream of Paris. China has been mired in Third World statues for centuries, and will remain in it.

I've traveled around the world, and there's a huge difference in people. Some people understand the world and how it works (the West), while others don't.

There's a line INFINITELY long line to settle in the West, and ZERO to settle anywhere else (unless you're a European who wants to backpack around some third world country)

I grew up thinking that all countries were the same, but after traveling, it only drove in me further how sacred the Western world is. I am very proud of it.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#159

Post by unityByFreedom »

caretoomuch wrote: post #150
unityByFreedom wrote: post #130

> The real reason for Hong Kong's decline, is the failure/irresponsibility of Hong Kong's elite ruling class Sounds like a narrative that Beijing would very much support, Mr. New Account. Get people to hate their local govt and appeal to a higher authority for support. Brilliant.

> Sounds like a narrative that Beijing would very much support, Mr. New Account. I'm offering my opinion on this issue. If you don't agree with me on the real reason for HK's decline, explain your point, or pick holes in my arguments. I don't see how labeling what I said as "approved by Beijing" - disregard how ridiculous it is - automatically disqualifies them. Also, as to Mr. New Account, I use a throwaway account…

> point out exact where I suggested Hong Kong people should hate their local government, and appeal to a higher authority.

That would be the first line I quoted. Not sure how you missed it.

Here's another,

> there was never any direct "order" from Beijing, well, sorta until recently, when Beijing began to see the failure of the local Hong Kong government.

That's an unsubstantiated and unprovable claim. Also implies Beijing is benevolent. Nobody knows exactly what strings Beijing is pulling. It's hidden behind lack of free press and habit of politicians to never quite say exactly what they mean.

> when the ruling rich saw the rebellion of lower class, without knowing/admitting themselves are to be blamed, they seek help from Beijing

That's completely made up. You have no source showing "HK elite" sought Beijing's guidance.

Honestly, your whole post is thick with "blame HK elite" instead of Beijing for whatever ails HK. Everyone knows Beijing isn't loved, so you throw in a dash of "Beijing only knows control", yet you point to them as being capable. The narrative you're pushing is really easy to discover.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#160

Post by vacri »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #137
throwawayasdf wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your points are all pretty much valid. However, you're getting hung up on terms that misses the point. My use of 'officially communist' was to imply the fact that it's more of a authoritarian regime. I also find it funny how so many are getting hung up on the same use of the term. You're missing the forest for the trees. Anyone with half a brain knows that its not the theoretical communism.

Yes, I think comments like the above are intentionally trying to divert attention from your main points.

Main points, like talking about all 1.3B people as if they are of the one mind? 1.3B brainwashed chinese, unlike the 300M free-thinking americans, none of whom buy into any sort of blind nationalism, amirite?

Also, how does 'extreme nationalism' manifest in the expat community? Is it just talking passionately about your homeland? Or are these people actually taking physical action? I mean, 'extreme nationalism' is suggestive of more than just talking.

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