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Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

mcmansionhell.com

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Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#151

Post by obstinate »

spamizbad wrote: post #108
uses wrote: post #69

I totally understand the whole "McMansions are bad architecture" thing... However, something about it really bothers me. There was an episode of 99% Invisible where the guest was talking about their McMansions blog and how it makes fun of these Horrid dwellings. The whole thing stank of classist elitism. The Wrong Type of people were getting the chance to design and build large houses, and of course they're applying…

The person you're describing is a 23-year old woman who comes from a working-class background. Hardly elitist. McMansions are/were a status-symbol of the upper-middle class, and now they're being attacked from the bottom.

She's also a socialist, for what it's worth, and involved in lobbying for quality affordable housing. That doesn't make her immune from attacks of classism, but it might affect how one judges what she says.

(Also worth noting that McMansions are typically homes to the upper middle class and the rich, not the poor.)

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#152

Post by logfromblammo »

cookiecaper wrote: post #33

IANAL. We give large companies far too much lenience to bully in this country. The legal system is fundamentally broken in this type of matchup, a small player pitted against a public company with billions of dollars floating around. Her only hope to win the fight is to be picked up by a nonprofit like the EFF, but my experience is that they're very restrained about where they'll lend assistance (that is, they're use…

I am also not a lawyer, but I am stubborn.

What I would do in this situation is to write a response letter saying, "I do not believe your accusations have merit, therefore I will not comply with your demands. I am open to further negotiations, but I will not agree to withdraw any of my own work from publication." Then they would have to make a more reasonable demand, or actually file a lawsuit.

In their complaint and summons, they would actually have to make a case, and request some form of relief that the judge could grant.

And my answer to it would essentially be this: I deny all claims made by plaintiff.

This would be followed by a request for discovery, for all computer access logs wherein Zillow believes that I bypassed their method of preventing those who have not agreed to their terms of service from accessing content via their website. Then I'd let the statutory clock run out on that and move for dismissal. There is a miniscule chance they could prove that she accessed their website at all, much less show that she violated ToS in doing so.

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#153

Post by twblalock »

jasode wrote: post #129
DanBC wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're claiming ToS violation.

I looked at the Four Factors Fair Use instead of Terms of Service because the twitter image of the Zillow cease & desist letter[1] mentioned it in their arguments. Also, one can use Zillow without ever clicking "I Agree" to a ToS so I'm not sure if that's even contractually binding or has been tested in court. [1] https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537

It is also possible that the courts would rule that Zillow's particular terms of service are unenforceable, without answering the broader question about the enforceability of terms of service in general. That happened to Zappos in 2013.

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#154

Post by sseveran »

pwthornton wrote: post #132
uses wrote: post #69

I totally understand the whole "McMansions are bad architecture" thing... However, something about it really bothers me. There was an episode of 99% Invisible where the guest was talking about their McMansions blog and how it makes fun of these Horrid dwellings. The whole thing stank of classist elitism. The Wrong Type of people were getting the chance to design and build large houses, and of course they're applying…

As engineers and designers, we should side with her on this one. The core conceit of McMansion Hell is that these are this homes built without experts, particularly architects (but any kind of designer is absent from them). These are often big, expensive homes, where the builder and the buyer thought they didn't need the help of an actual professional. This isn't just an American thing, but it seems particularly bad…

Post college I had a mentor that was in the real estate development business, not for McMansions, first time homebuyer and some developments in the next price point up (Houses are a bit like software. Builders will typically have base plans and then depending on the price point a varying number of customizations that can be applied. The more expensive the home the more customizations offered. A really great thing about people buying McMansions is that they are all experts and know far more about building a house than someone who literally owns a company that does this. So people who sell to this demographic let the customer do a lot of driving especially on the interior. Builders can also mark up these customizations to increase margins. So really I guess bottom line here is that people want these houses. The architecture (or lack there of depending on your view) is carefully researched to appeal to people with the right amount of money to spend. Having watched this process from the builder side there seems to be little to be gained from trying to for design on to the customers as they don't want it.

I think it's a bit forward for criticizing the purchasers of these homes for the aesthetics alone. They wanted these homes and there is going to be someone who will provide it. I am yet to find modern art that I can appreciate but I am happy that others can. I love classical sculpture which I am sure someone would have a bit to say about if I stuck one in my house. If someone wants a non-functioning balcony (this I just cannot understand) to each his own. One nice feature these homes have is that they are all built together in large developments where I will rarely ever venture.

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#155

Post by chadgeidel »

criddell wrote: post #147
chadgeidel wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guest on that article and the blog author are the same person. How can you "understand that mcmansions are bad architecture" and also say "the whole thing stank of classist elitism"? The blog points fun at clearly bad buildings. Fake columns, unnecessary rooms, poor placement of re-used furniture, etc. Sarcasm is funny. The blog is sarcastic in nature. What's wrong with that?

Maybe it will just take time for some of these design choices to be appreciated? Is a fake column on a house any different than fins on a 1959 Cadillac?

It's a good question. I'm not well-versed enough in design theory to answer, but I'll offer my opinion anyway. :-)

The fins on a 1959 Cadillac are well-integrated (design-wise) on the car. It's a theme of the era and the car was designed from the ground up to look like a jet or a rocket.

The design elements in a McMansion are not well integrated (see the posts on the site) - they are added on as an afterthought because "nice houses have these things". There is no coherent style or design.

If I had to guess, I would say the "gaudy" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoni_Gaud%C3%AD !!) design of a Cadillac will be well-regarded for at least 100 years. I don't think the design of McMansions will ever be well-regarded.

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#156

Post by Overtonwindow »

So I don't get it. This girl sounds really, really petty, and the 99pi episode is probably their worst. So what if someone wants to build a huge house? How is that harming anyone else? If I were wealthy I would totally build a McMansion because I want it, I like it, and I would love to live in it. Who cares?

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#157

Post by cat199 »

peacetreefrog wrote: post #150
rayiner wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Northern Virginia among these McMansions, and frankly I don't buy the elitism angle. These folks have a lot of money (top 5% at least, if not even top 1%) and are among the best educated in the country. And these aren't dwellings driven by the need for functionality. It's not like people here have big families they need to house (empty nesters can afford them more readily than people with families!). The…

"If you can't ridicule them for lacking taste you're basically saying that taste doesn't exist and everything is always subjective." Or perhaps you're against ridicule in general. Why is it your problem what sort of houses other people live in?

>> everything is always subjective

=

> Why is it your problem what sort of houses other people live in?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#158

Post by wil421 »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #156

So I don't get it. This girl sounds really, really petty, and the 99pi episode is probably their worst. So what if someone wants to build a huge house? How is that harming anyone else? If I were wealthy I would totally build a McMansion because I want it, I like it, and I would love to live in it. Who cares?

But then what would we argue about?

I know someone who sends letters repeatedly to GEICO because he hates their commercials. Why waste the effort?

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#159

Post by ChuckMcM »

Declanomous wrote: post #135
rayiner wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Northern Virginia among these McMansions, and frankly I don't buy the elitism angle. These folks have a lot of money (top 5% at least, if not even top 1%) and are among the best educated in the country. And these aren't dwellings driven by the need for functionality. It's not like people here have big families they need to house (empty nesters can afford them more readily than people with families!). The…

Additionally, McMansions are often not very functional. As much as I would appreciate more space, I've been in enough McMansions to appreciate how important a well-built and well-designed house is. Completely ignoring scale doesn't just make McMansions aesthetically unpleasant, it them uncomfortable or completely unsuitable for most of the things we use a house for as well. If you spend any time in a McMansion, you w…

This is where I fall on the spectrum. I can understand someone wanting their house to evoke some notion of grandeur but really if it isn't functional the effort feels wasted to me.

That said, I have always felt ridiculing other people's taste to be fairly mean. And while there are/were some solid points in the blog about design and things that 'look right' and things that 'look wrong' it could often come across fairly harshly. And even if you disclaim that with "I'm talking about the house, not you." since the owner likes the house enough to own it and not change it, it really is kind of about them too.

Re: Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

#160

Post by cat199 »

chadgeidel wrote: post #155
criddell wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it will just take time for some of these design choices to be appreciated? Is a fake column on a house any different than fins on a 1959 Cadillac?

It's a good question. I'm not well-versed enough in design theory to answer, but I'll offer my opinion anyway. :-) The fins on a 1959 Cadillac are well-integrated (design-wise) on the car. It's a theme of the era and the car was designed from the ground up to look like a jet or a rocket. The design elements in a McMansion are not well integrated (see the posts on the site) - they are added on as an afterthought becau…

Also:

50's US cars were also exceedingly well built using high quality materials and mostly/nearly by hand..

which goes against the 'cheap / phony materials' ethos critiqued in mcmansions..

that said, plenty of people I'm sure critiqued the 'chintzy' 50s asthetic and increased use of plastics in the day..

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