A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#151

Post by patrickg_zill » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:48 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #141

patrickg_zill wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. If H1Bs are shown to have depressed wages of computer programmers etc., why would it not be logical to expect illegals to depress wages? If there were 12 million fewer people in the USA (the laughably low "official" number of illegals in the country), would demand for housing be less? Demand for doctors and related health care? Even former Secretary of Labor under Bill Clinton, Robert Reich, in TV interviews, admi…

1. How would you separate that effect from the well-documented and systemic collusion to depress.wages and reduce employee turnover that already affects our industry? As for the count, do you have some reasources that aren't secretly written by daily stormer folks?

re 1: so only the computer-related companies are smart enough to understand and then take advantage of such effects?

The count has remained unchanged since the late 1990s/early 2000s. Yet there are many who have crossed over the southern border each year since then. Therefore ...

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#152

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:49 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #150

LyndsySimon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. GamerGate was the cause for the rise of right-wing social media power. Milo wasn't know outside those circles until after the controversy got the mainstream consciousness, and now he's a staple on all of the right-wing sites I frequent. The idea that the largest gun forum on the internet would be regularly discussing posts by Milo and Gavin McInness would have been laughable before GamerGate. "Based Stick…

>It's now rebellious and cool to want to marry and start a traditional family. Uh.. what? I've never actually seen family values being part of the discussion given most GG adherents trend teenage or older unmarried on KiA (the target male demos of video games).

I mean that a traditional family is seen as somewhat counter-cultural today. I don't mean that this is literally a central topic for /pol/.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#153

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #148

LyndsySimon wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I've not really tried to define the term so explicitly, but I think it's fair to say that any position that is held by a majority of Republicans (or Democrats) is not extreme, because it would by definition not be outside the norm. For example, public opinion in support of same-sex marriage in the US is currently at an all-time high of 64%, with 34% opposing. Being opposed to same-sex marriage is not an extreme…

So can you do the ground work and show that a position like opposition to same sex marriage is actually frequently and casually labeled as extreme? (I can think of lots of other invectives that people apply to it, I'm just not sure that it particularly gets treated as a non mainstream view...) I also disagree with the point in principle. We even have a word for it when a majority gets on the wrong side of rational (a…

> So can you do the ground work and show that a position like opposition to same sex marriage is actually frequently and casually labeled as extreme?

I suppose I could, but I'm honestly not interested in doing so to support a casual conversation on a web forum.

> I also disagree with the point in principle. We even have a word for it when a majority gets on the wrong side of rational (and goes to extremes), a mob.

Actually I'm not familiar with the term "mob" being used that way, and a quick search doesn't seem to support your usage either.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#154

Post by akhilcacharya » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 11:14 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #152

akhilcacharya wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's now rebellious and cool to want to marry and start a traditional family. Uh.. what? I've never actually seen family values being part of the discussion given most GG adherents trend teenage or older unmarried on KiA (the target male demos of video games).

I mean that a traditional family is seen as somewhat counter-cultural today. I don't mean that this is literally a central topic for /pol/.

....is it? I don't know any non-traditional families and I'm in a pretty metropolitan social circle.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#155

Post by sinxoveretothex » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 11:46 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #133

sinxoveretothex wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I am making a weaker claim than the one you are objecting to. My point is that it is not some irrelevant fringe. I've backed that up with other examples, but I can't show it to you more convincingly. At any rate, I think my point is a response to your question about "interacting with universities" (you didn't ask me, but my point is that doing exactly that won't exactly convince one the claim the other poster…

At any rate, I think my point is a response to your question about "interacting with universities" (you didn't ask me, but my point is that doing exactly that won't exactly convince one the claim the other poster made is entirely wrong). But that's just my point with the scare quotes. How does a single person go about gaining experience with the thousands of individuals that comprise a given university? And then ther…

I think one has to see populations as distributed along a normal distribution (a bell curve) or some other probability distribution rather than somehow coalescing to a single "representative individual".

Protesters represent one tail of the distribution on some measure (e.g. "belief in social justice"). The fact that protests get more intense and/or more frequent and/or more populous are indications of a shift in the distribution (picture a normal distribution being shifted along the x axis).

That's what I am pointing to. I don't think everyone has to be in lockstep to be able to talk about what a given group does or believes or what not.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#156

Post by maxerickson » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 12:07 AM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #153

maxerickson wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So can you do the ground work and show that a position like opposition to same sex marriage is actually frequently and casually labeled as extreme? (I can think of lots of other invectives that people apply to it, I'm just not sure that it particularly gets treated as a non mainstream view...) I also disagree with the point in principle. We even have a word for it when a majority gets on the wrong side of rational (a…

> So can you do the ground work and show that a position like opposition to same sex marriage is actually frequently and casually labeled as extreme? I suppose I could, but I'm honestly not interested in doing so to support a casual conversation on a web forum. > I also disagree with the point in principle. We even have a word for it when a majority gets on the wrong side of rational (and goes to extremes), a mob. Ac…

How about 1 or 2 analysis of it as an extreme ideology? Even better if they aren't by kooks.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#157

Post by maxerickson » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 12:14 AM UTC

sinxoveretothex wrote: post #155

maxerickson wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At any rate, I think my point is a response to your question about "interacting with universities" (you didn't ask me, but my point is that doing exactly that won't exactly convince one the claim the other poster made is entirely wrong). But that's just my point with the scare quotes. How does a single person go about gaining experience with the thousands of individuals that comprise a given university? And then ther…

I think one has to see populations as distributed along a normal distribution (a bell curve) or some other probability distribution rather than somehow coalescing to a single "representative individual". Protesters represent one tail of the distribution on some measure (e.g. "belief in social justice"). The fact that protests get more intense and/or more frequent and/or more populous are indications of a shift in the…

Even if you do something like assume a bimodal distribution with small variance, the mere presence of protests doesn't tell you much.

It's not even particularly clear to me that protests have gotten more frequent. When I was in school 15 years ago there were enough protests; I just ignored them...

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#158

Post by somecontext » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 2:37 AM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #154

LyndsySimon wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that a traditional family is seen as somewhat counter-cultural today. I don't mean that this is literally a central topic for /pol/.

....is it? I don't know any non-traditional families and I'm in a pretty metropolitan social circle.

For some context for those interested: It's not entirely clear what "traditional family" means, but a plausible definition is married parents with children, where the husband is employed but the wife is not. (This is the direct sense implied by the context of the post originating this discussion, but is also the definition used by many other sources.)

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics at https://www.bls.gov/news.release/famee.t04.htm there were ~7 million families in the United States fitting this definition in 2016, which corresponds to approximately 20% of families with children (and thus fewer than 10% of families total). Among said families with children, it is twice as common to have both husband and wife employed (~40%), and it is slightly more common to have a mother with no opposite-sex spouse present (~25%) -- though she may be unemployed.

I was unable to find statistics as to the geographic distribution of different family structures, eg whether they are more or less likely to live in metropolitan or rural areas.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#159

Post by KirinDave » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 3:43 AM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #151

KirinDave wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. How would you separate that effect from the well-documented and systemic collusion to depress.wages and reduce employee turnover that already affects our industry? As for the count, do you have some reasources that aren't secretly written by daily stormer folks?

re 1: so only the computer-related companies are smart enough to understand and then take advantage of such effects? The count has remained unchanged since the late 1990s/early 2000s. Yet there are many who have crossed over the southern border each year since then. Therefore ...

Let's split this by paragraph. Sorry to fisk your post so much.

> re 1: so only the computer-related companies are smart enough to understand and then take advantage of such effects?

I think maybe you're misunderstanding me. Apple, Google, Oracle, and others have engaged in a wage fixing cartel that was exposed a few years ago. A big long summary was laid out here: https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

> The count has remained unchanged since the late 1990s/early 2000s. Yet there are many who have crossed over the southern border each year since then. Therefore ...

I'm not sure what you're referring to here or if you're suggesting I disagree with the amount of "illegal" immigration being on an uptick. I think it is, but data I've seen suggests an impression that it's a function of the country's total population, not a trend that rises out-of-proportion. Further, the rules for immigration (and the various visa quotas) have not fixed ("remained unchanged") since 1990. It's eye-rolling, incandescently hot cow pies ripped right off of a poorly sourced Breitbart article comment section to suggest they are.

Our economy has grown substantially as a result of business owners exploiting labor that has no legal recourse for mistreatment, cannot easily push back on unlivable wages, and does not receive health insurance. And it's outrageous.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#160

Post by badsock » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:41 AM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #142

badsock wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say that American conservative views are not extreme, in the context of the global internet?

I'm not sure what the "context of the global internet" has to do with my comment.

This subthread is off of devmunchies comment about Reddit and Twitter, and the OP is about 4chan. All of these forums are global.

My point is that American-style conservatism may represent half of Americans, but it's overwhelmed in other developed countries (which, taken together, are larger in population). So much so that I would argue that in the global context, American conservatism is small enough and far enough to one side of the debate that it's accurate to call it an extreme.