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Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

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Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#151

Post by rtfs »

marenkay wrote: post #60
Boothroid wrote: post #53

Perhaps this means Germany could suffer disproportionately as a result of automation. It's also worth pointing out that Germany is not immune to global trends that may erode the ability to sell based on quality - I recently bought a 2001 BMW E39, thought by many to be the best BMW ever made. In fixing up the E39 I've come across the same opinion over and over again: BMWs/German cars in general are not as well made as…

If anything Germany will suffer from the consequences of not investing in education for the past four decades as we are already seeing the lack of capable, well-trained, high skilled workers. German education basically has been focussed on producing low level work forces and ignoring the rest, you can see that clearly while hiring.

This is not correct. We are quite over educated here in the high skilled workforce - nowadays much more students, meister and techniker everywhere, and sure we have created a low wage sector recently as well, but this is another story and represents a much smaller share of the entire workforce.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#152

Post by caseysoftware »

stale2002 wrote: post #119
caseysoftware wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the broken window fallacy. No, it's not. With investment in military R&D, there's no "broken window." Claiming that destruction in one place (aka war) spurs growth is the broken window fallacy. It's possible that investment "directly into the economy" might be more effective except for the fact that you have to take the money out of the economy and put it into a few peoples' hands to direct. The fewer hands…

But with the military, you are already taking that money out of the economy and putting it into a few people's hands directly. I wasn't suggesting redistributing money from one company to another. I was suggesting having some sort of government agency, that spends trillions of dollars a year on doing all those R&D things that the military does that have nothing to do with blowing people up. Literally just "The milita…

Trillions of dollars per year? The entire US Defense Budget for 2016 was $600B while the entire budget was $3.8T.[1]

Further, many large scale tech advancements have come from military R&D, originally with the goal of blowing people up, preventing them from getting blown up, or making them recover after the fact. Everything from the Internet to GPS to microwave to many synthetic fabrics to emergency medicine.

I agree that investing in things that don't kill people is great and should be encouraged. It's just outside the scope of government.

1 - https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spendi...

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#153

Post by tehabe »

What people overlook, also this linked pieces is, that Germany also has the banking system for this. You can say, there are three types of banks, private, state and co-op banks. And while there are huge private banks, most state and co-op banks are organised locally. Almost every district has its own Sparkasse und many towns still have a Volksbank or Reifeisenbank.

This is an important feature of the economics in Germany I think. Yes, many of these banks might be too small today and many merge into bigger banks but they are still the most trusted banks in the country.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#154

Post by shermanyo »

dmckeon wrote: post #84
ChefDenominator wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one direct exposure I have had to the issue of inheritance tax was with a small Midwest-based distributor. The owner was very old and wanted to pass the company to his daughters, who had actually been running the business for decades (and when I came along, his granddaughters were working the office). His issue was that what the government decided his business to be worth could only be paid with more cash than hi…

The owner could have gifted a small interest in the company to each daughter, grand-daughter, and perhaps their spouses in each year of those decades, letting subsequent value growth and inflation accrue to the surviving family members. And also, perhaps transformed the company ownership structure into a limited partnership as well, claiming a lower market value for the shares owned by limited partners. tl;dr: First…

This is exactly what should have been done, but requires a longer term commitment, as well as releasing _some_ control while still alive. (both of which I think are a good thing in context)

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#155

Post by dang »

ChefDenominator wrote: post #147
dang wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of personal attack will get your account banned on HN, so please don't do it again. Ditto for uncivil swipes like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14435509 . https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Is this universally enforced? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13591314

We certainly try to. But you'd probably get farther with us if you worked on your own stuff first.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#156

Post by ChefDenominator »

dang wrote: post #155
ChefDenominator wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this universally enforced? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13591314

We certainly try to. But you'd probably get farther with us if you worked on your own stuff first.

Two posts in violation of a policy regularly broken makes it so if I complain about this bad behavior someone else is using against me, such complaints are not relevant, but I may be banned from your website.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#157

Post by dejv »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #150
dejv wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is different system here and in Germany. Vocational study or technical high school is limiting your choices of uni and career paths. Post high school you either go work (you already spent few years on the job during school) or uni. There are tons of jobs that are closed to you when you choose wrong path at the age of 14 or 15 and it is really hard to change the tracks. It is good system for manufacturing com…

What makes it really hard to change tracks? I imagine if there were enough political will, that's a solvable problem.

The system is build as a training for just one type of work and nothing more. (if we are not talking about gymnasiums) So changing tracks means starting from zero again. It is doable, but very few people want to start again in class full of 15 years old, second problem is money: there is nothing like student loans. Also society will view as a failure.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#158

Post by s3nnyy »

tiatia wrote: post #78

Germany's real secret is that they don't pay their engineers. An engineer, even with a PhD from a world class university, makes around 55k. Even in cities like Munich they will laugh about you if you request 60k. Sure, if you have tons of experience, industry contacts etc., maybe more SOMETIMES. But let's get back to the 55k. A short internet search (www.nettolohn.de) tells us this is approximately 2600 Euro net pay…

This is why I moved to Switzerland.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#159

Post by marenkay »

rtfs wrote: post #151
marenkay wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything Germany will suffer from the consequences of not investing in education for the past four decades as we are already seeing the lack of capable, well-trained, high skilled workers. German education basically has been focussed on producing low level work forces and ignoring the rest, you can see that clearly while hiring.

This is not correct. We are quite over educated here in the high skilled workforce - nowadays much more students, meister and techniker everywhere, and sure we have created a low wage sector recently as well, but this is another story and represents a much smaller share of the entire workforce.

Have you tried checking out some of these students these days? Have you missed the shortage notes about classical Meister, etc. roles given out the past decade?

Also low wage sector is a few million people (last official numbers are about 8 million people). Compare that to high skilled workers.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#160

Post by rawfan »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #150
dejv wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is different system here and in Germany. Vocational study or technical high school is limiting your choices of uni and career paths. Post high school you either go work (you already spent few years on the job during school) or uni. There are tons of jobs that are closed to you when you choose wrong path at the age of 14 or 15 and it is really hard to change the tracks. It is good system for manufacturing com…

What makes it really hard to change tracks? I imagine if there were enough political will, that's a solvable problem.

It's not true. At least for Germany. Take a friend of mine for example: He went to Hauptschule (Germany has a 3-tier school system where children are split up after primary school, Hauptschule is for the least skilled children). He left Hauptschule a year early with very bad grades to start an apprenticeship with a carpenter. After three years of school and practival training he graduated to journeyman with honors (i.e. all grades: A). This gives you a scholarship for master school or college (if you want). He chose master school and earned the master craftsman degree. He finished that with honors, too and got another scholarship. Now he actually went to university to get a bachelor in something called wood-technology.

In many academic traits it's actually beneficial to go for an apprenticeship first. Architects often become carpenters of masons before studying architecture, a friend of mine who's a nurse got her Dr. med. last week. The list could go on for a while.

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