How many jobs really require college? • Hacker News Board

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#151

Post by dbg31415 » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 5:57 PM UTC

pen2l wrote: post #7

I think the author of this post is making the same mistake that a lot of other people (particularly smart folks) make whenever they are thinking about the ills of modern education system and what can be done to improve it. Like Peter Thiel and others, I don't think they understand how and why students are failing in classrooms today. Take for example the author's suggestions on how school systems can be improved: Cre…

> The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work (in most cases)... and yet we're going to do remote with our students?

I can't name a single "elite company" that doesn't rely on consultants at some point. Most of these consultants do work remote. So... if it works for some people, why can't it work for every person?

It's not correct that remote work doesn't work.

Remote work doesn't get embraced by a lot of companies because they care about things outside of the results. Managers / decision makers care about "seeing" people work (I suspect this has more to do with narcism than anything else, but probably also a bit because they don't know how to use Google Hangouts and / or can't put the same level of emotional pressure on people via a monitor), HR cares about establishing "culture" and somehow that's accomplished by having people play foosball (but not Overwatch) together.

Anyway, because of all this crap, we're forced to waste 2 hours a day commuting -- and who knows how long shaving, dropping off dry cleaning... and all that other crap we do just so we can go into an office). Then we sit in shitty big open spaces that are horrible for introverts or anyone who needs focus to get their job done and waste a ton of time trying to figure out who to go out to lunch with and what to have for lunch and how to decorate our cubes / desks...

Anyway, look... all I'm saying is that every company uses remote workers when the shit hits the fan and results are all that matter. The fact that they don't embrace it for all employees... it has more to do with management being petty and insecure, or technologically short sighted, or trying to make the drones look busy to investors than it has to do with anything else.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#152

Post by orangecat » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #44

I recently helped transform a customer service department from being an embarrassing shambles to something we could be proud of. The queue of tickets is now empty whereas before, when we didn't have things automated, our many customer service agents were struggling to keep up with the back of a 4000 long queue. Things are now pro-active, we fix problems before customers know rather than wait for them to complain. Ess…

It does not matter what the education is in particularly, it is the skills of being able to do basic things like work without disrupting others, being able to write and being able to learn that matter.

Which should be what a high school diploma indicates. Otherwise, what the heck are we doing with kids for 12+ years?

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#153

Post by dsfyu404ed » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

GCA10 wrote: post #42

Lots of interesting ideas here, but also some wacky or condescending assumptions about other people's lines of work. Let's take two: TRUCK DRIVERS: They don't just move big rigs around. They also need to keep detailed log books, plan out routes, pass inspections -- and know how to talk civilly and constructively to DOT inspectors. An eighth grade education will not get you there. Especially on the last part. The back…

They also need to keep detailed log books, >electronic log books

> plan out routes

And then get chewed out for wasting 30min deviating from the route the GPS says even though the GPS told you to go under an over-height bridge.

>pass inspections

CDL school deals with that.

>know how to talk civilly and constructively to DOT inspectors.

If you're talking to DOT anywhere other than a weigh station you're already screwed. If you're talking at a weigh station you need to know about three sentences of english.

You seem to think every trucker is an owner operator. Most are just "steering wheel holders" for a big dry van company. You don't need a high school degree for that. English literacy would probably be beneficial but I would say it's not a hard necessity.

Education credentials don't matter much anyway since many truckers are immigrants who speak little English (it works well for them for a variety of reasons) and who's education level doesn't map well onto the US system.

Basically, if you can pass the CDL exam you can move a dry van from A to B

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#154

Post by ThomPete » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #149

ThomPete wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they wont. In fact they aren't today so why should they be in the future. And furthermore you need only very few people running a whole radiology business for billions of people.

Maybe radiology is an exception (or my understanding is outdated), but from what I've read, a large portion of the medical industry is doctor-owned. For instance I've read that doctors provide a large portion of the investment pool for big ticket diagnostic equipment, and for businesses such as clinics, provider systems, and malpractice insurance companies. "The workers own the means of production." ;-)

Doctor owned not doctors owned.

The point is that you don't need the amount of radiologist you are currently education if pattern recognition gets done by machines.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#155

Post by psyc » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:00 PM UTC

branchless wrote: post #57

randomdata wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More importantly, you'll probably not have the financial resources to walk away from the job.

I may be putting words in your mouth but I think you are saying that non-graduates who are not soaked in debt have more choices, and if so I'd agree. Employers want in order of preference: * h1-b - work late or life as you know it ends * big mortgage with family - work late or I ruin your family's life * big university debt - work late or I ruin your life Debt is a tool of control.

I might agree that a hypothetical crappy employer would want those things. Every employer I've worked for wanted good programmers, and that's all they wanted.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#156

Post by yourapostasy » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

wsxcde wrote: post #70

ThomPete wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ironically couldn't be more wrong and you are looking at this the wrong way. A cleaning lady is going to be able to keep her job longer than a radiologist as the radiologist requires mostly the ability to understand visual patterns where as a cleaning lady requires general purpose AI. It's way harder to lift the rug, get in between the books etc. Furthermore you get it wrong. Specialization requires knowledge yes…

You're being biased by presentism. In an age where robots are cheap and ubiquitous, we won't still hire cleaning ladies (interesting assumption they're still ladies) just because they'll be able to clean under the rug. Instead, home furniture will change so that it becomes easier to clean for robots.

Custodial work like a live-in housekeeper performs covers a very large range of skills I've yet to see successfully automated in a single package. Sorting/pre-treating/running laundry (including identifying dry clean items to set aside), folding and putting up clothes (including setting aside and matching missing items like socks, accessories, etc.), loading/unloading/put up dishes (including all the kitchen gadgets that go into the dishwasher), identifying and hand-washing kitchen items, dusting/cleaning (including knowing when to take care around fragile items), cleaning the kitchen,..., the list is quite long.

Just folding clothes is only commercially automated in very expensive and limited contexts (can fold shirts, but not blankets), and it won't put up the items for you. There are any number of restaurants that would love a kitchen-cleaning robot that guarantees that part of the restaurant inspector's rounds is always taken care of to a consistent degree. Just a robot modified from a pick and place solution to declutter by putting up out-of-place items and remembering where everything is located would find a large market. We're nowhere near good solutions for these and many other "simple" skills, much less mass market solutions.

I sometimes wonder if a giant "donut" job market will develop: many pattern-based very high-end specialties get automated, and many extremely low-end (Roomba, for example) ultra-repetitive tasks get automated, but lots of low'ish end jobs like custodial work stubbornly remain. Above the income strata of those low'ish end jobs in the middle sits a group of steadily-insecure positions as automation constantly nibbles away at their edges from the higher-end income stratas.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#157

Post by k__ » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:05 PM UTC

_yosefk wrote: post #63

k__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. I met a whole bunch of people who want to be a dev because it pays well. Most of them need constant supervision.

I'm in it for the money and haven't failed hard enough to prompt much supervision in a while. Intrinsic/extrinsic has nothing to do with it (I struggle with some things I'm intrinsically motivated to do more than programming.) Certainly "person X doing Y" requires different amount of supervision depending on X and Y but I think we know little about exactly how and why it varies. One source of variability: some care a…

"Intrinsic/extrinsic has nothing to do with it (I struggle with some things I'm intrinsically motivated to do more than programming.)"

Sounds like you got intrinsic and extrinsic mixed up, at least unknowingly.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#158

Post by camgunz » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

Advocates of this general position, whether it's Peter Thiel and "hey don't go to college I'll just pay you" or this author's "hey your job isn't that complicated, you can figure it out in less time for less money", all miss the point of college.

The best purpose of college is to make you a reasonable citizen in a democracy. Most Americans voting in elections can't even name the Vice President, let alone articulate what plenary powers are, what the 4th and 5th amendments say (or seriously any amendment), name more than 3 executive branch departments (Defense, State and... uh...), point out where Iraq is on a map, etc. It's really no surprise we get the elected officials we get.

Sure, professional training is important and I think our education system is not particularly efficient about it. But education is more than just "here's how you work for the man". It's supposed to make you a well-rounded, well-educated citizen so you can participate effectively in a democratic government.

Which is why things like public education, state colleges and universities, a separation of religion and education, and state subsidized college tuition are so important, and why religious schools, charter schools, and for-profit colleges/universities are so antithetical to democracy: their agenda is entirely separate from "be a well-educated democratic citizen".

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#159

Post by sanderjd » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

ethanwillis wrote: post #23

pen2l wrote: post #7

I think the author of this post is making the same mistake that a lot of other people (particularly smart folks) make whenever they are thinking about the ills of modern education system and what can be done to improve it. Like Peter Thiel and others, I don't think they understand how and why students are failing in classrooms today. Take for example the author's suggestions on how school systems can be improved: Cre…

Disclaimer: I haven't read the article yet. However, I wanted to say that my kid sister is in 9th grade and is doing online high school.. It's been a bit more stressful but she's been learning a lot more because she has to actually go through all of the lessons herself each day rather than zoning out in class. All of her grades have improved at least 1 letter grade versus a traditional classroom (and from what I've s…

I'm curious - does she have an engaged "education supervisor" of some sort for this? Like you or a parent? I have no educational experience, but my thinking is that these things are likely to work well with someone engaged and capable in motivating progress. This (again, in my non-professional opinion) is the most important role of a teacher. The presentation of material is much easier to replace with books, videos, and published exercises.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#160

Post by NotSammyHagar » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #144

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do understand that anyone from history will have held views that are morally repugnant to anyone in the modern world. Think of Thomas Jefferson and having children with his slaves and I think those children were slaves, while also thinking about the universal rights of man (and not women, blacks, or non-landholding white men). But there is a historic millieu that one has to use to judge that person's views and idea…

To be fair though, if you believe people from antiquity had some highly problematic views (no doubt), then wouldn't it be easy to extrapolate that people a hundred years from now are going to look on your beliefs in horror? I cant imagine slave owners thought they were bad people either. It's easy to write it off because you'll be long gone, so who cares, but we'd be a much better society if we realized a lot of what…

I agree, I am sure some of my views will be judged to be wrong, horrifying. One I have thought of is because I like to eat meat, I'll be judged to be a monster. I have considered becoming a vegatarian, but I do love a steak with wine, or a burger. I used to visit my grandmother's farm when I was a kid and we had cows and chickens, and I'm under no misconceptions about where food comes from :-)

Actually I'm interested in learning more about the world and educating my self and not just being stuck on one view of what is right and wrong.

I will disagree with one thing your wrote, about ideas coming and and out of fashion over time - certainly that happens but the idea of civil rights for all individuals must be a universal thing. I think that's very different than views about religion or proper foods to eat or ideas about what are good jobs for men or women.