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MBAs as CEOs

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151–160 of 167 posts

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#151
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> readymade set of sacraments and oaths one can apply to any business to achieve magical effects On the contrary, MBAs are designed not to be a "management formula" but teach by experience in two ways: first, exposure to thousands of real life case studies (often, in the better programs, with the CEO who lived it participating in the class discussion), and a class formed of carefully balanced profiles to have a mix o…

there is no better way to speed-teach a generalist exposure I'd say there is no way to speed-teach a generalist exposure - so MBA's are off on the wrong foot to start with.

Agree. You need experience from as many parts of an industry as possible, from the front line, to line management, etc. Can't get any of that in school.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#152
post #104
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. The amount of megacorp apologists on here is deeply disturbing to me. No matter what happens, there's always someone willing to apologize for them. Business seems to be the new religion.

I do not think its new, and this scene[0] captures it really [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zK-b0INu1k I did not see the movie but this scene was shared with me while discussing the business religion.

It also captures politics as religion very well.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#153

I know its popular to hate on Peter Thiel here but I think he's been right about this cohort for a long time, and that its not really surprising. Emphasis mine: > I think one challenge a lot of the business schools have is they end up attracting students who are very extroverted and have very low conviction, and they put them in this hot house environment for a few years — at the end of which, a large number of peopl…

I hate on Peter Thiel all the time, but he's absolutely right here. MBA schools teach a form of strategic analysis that is almost purely driven by fatally flawed ex post facto reasoning. Hell, the case study model pioneered at Harvard is a case study in ex post facto reasoning. Just read their most popular business books...always looking to the past and trying to find mystical reasons why one company did well and ano…

Current MBA student here. I certainly agree with the fact that a lot of business (especially case studies and popular business books) is a posteriori

However, I don't think that means that it is always flawed reasoning. There are kernels of truth that can be gained.

The challenge is that most of the analysis and synthesized learnings will apply for specific companies and points in time.

BUT, it's the analytical ability and reasoning skills that are important to develop as an MBA and NOT the specific learnings that applied to companies in the past. Any MBA that tells you otherwise is obviously flawed.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#154

I'm aware that HN is a pro-engineering, anti-MBA group of folks, but hopefully my perspective helps add a bit of color from the other side. I got a BS and MS in Computer Science and ended up working as a software engineer for a number of years. After a while, I was left wanting more, so I enrolled in an MBA program. IMO, 50-60% of classes in business school are fluff leadership rah-rah self-development bullshit. But…

As time has gone on, I really wonder if the canonical technical/non-technical split in leadership is really the right breakdown for companies. It frequently ends up being a risk item that leadership is so separate from the low-level revenue and cost generation activities of companies. Perhaps it would work better to distribute a lot of the administrative scaling, budgeting, type activities in favor of being more orga…

To me, what you're arguing for sounds like decentralization.

Toyota's lean builds on decentralization of expertise and decision making, and that is what American and Western European companies miss and why their lean implementation efforts fail.

Another success story is Handelsbanken, the only (?) European bank to not need govt bail outs in 2008.

A third would be 3M and probably also Semco.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#155
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finance I, II, III. Accounting I, II, III. Corporate Strategy. Emerging Markets. Micro/Macro Economics. Business Acting. Marketing Strategy. Ops Research.

Ok so why not just take those classes online or something and save yourself the huge cost of MBA?

Current MBA student here.

I did online classes. Read books. Still signed up for an MBA after I realized I didn't have the confidence and needed time to develop in an environment that encourages immersion and discussion of these topics.

Not everyone needs to do this. But those who do, like me, should do an MBA.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#156
post #11
post #5

Company I worked for had an explicit policy to never hire MBAs. We had people from all walks of life but no MBAs. The reason is owners have worked in a large company under clueless MBAs who were neither good managers nor good engineers, and just repeated the latest corporate-speak buzzwords over and over, while drawing sizable salaries.

This seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. "I worked with some bad MBAs, so anyone who holds that degree must be bad."

Preferring to not hire MBAs is as bad as preferring to hire MBAs. Do you think both are wrong approaches?

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#157
post #136

I wish that people who rail against MBAs, as if they're a cult that should be demonised, would take 3 minutes to look at the classes and topics that you cover in a typical programme. You'll quickly see that they aren't programmes that you go into to exchange business cards and smoke cigars, and go off to do a few fun team building exercises and projects while casually reading Ries and Thiel and other pop-business bul…

"An MBA is to business what Computer Science is to coding as a junior web dev"

great analogy. I think the additional challenge is that coding has a clear feedback loop. Management and business does not and therefore most people remain 'junior web devs' and make mistakes throughout their careers.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#158
I am an experienced entrepreneur in that I have both run and been a part of a few (mostly successful!) small businesses, one in which I was second-tier management on the tech side (hiring, personal and team execution, partnerships/integrations) sold for USD$48.5M. Another at which I was first employee I just sold my shares in at a still higher valuation. Currently I am running another, which I believe without a doubt will be the most successful by a significant margin, as I have multiple offers for a large portion of that capital on the table already.

I'm considering a well regarded MBA program (HKUST), in go-slow part time mode. The (ex-KPMG) head of a VC firm interested in leading our subsequent round encouraged me not to do it, suggesting it would take too much time and a mentor would be superior, despite the schedule being essentially weekend-oriented and specifically designed for people already in industry. I believe, despite the VC's concerns, that it may be useful to me at this point in my life, though maybe for different reasons than most.

1. I've spent a lot of my career working remotely or as a fly-in short term worker in different cultures (UK, US, Korea, etc.), or running my own businesses in a foreign culture (China), I haven't been in the formal business environment very much. While I have made successful VC presentations and been part of critical meetings with all sectors, I do feel I can up my game in terms of professionalism. Spending time amongst a motivated peer group from industry with similar focus and goals will no doubt do wonders.

2. By understanding the scope and depth of a leading MBA course (some of which I will have already encountered) I can better grok others I encounter in the business landscape in terms of their probable levels of education and thinking on various issues.

3. I dropped out of my undergraduate degree (though with excellent marks, multiple scholarships, and glowing head-of-department references) so having something formal and tertiary may make more of a difference later.

4. Students reside on campus with an eastward morning view of the ocean in Hong Kong, which will provide a nice sporadic (every two weekends) physical, mental and social break from urban Shenzhen, where I am currently relocating with my company http://8-food.com/ and family.

While I understand the VC's concern - "run the business! don't prepare to run someone else's business later!", as well as harboring the same concerns outlined below, and do have the Thiel quote on MBAs in my fortune database - https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup - I am frankly leaning towards doing it anyway... if they'll take me. ;)

I'll let you know in a few years!

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#159

I think it's more useful to think of MBAs as ordination into something like the Jesuits of American Corporatism. Late Capitalism in the US has evolved in such an obviously unequal and environmentally dangerous way that the only recourse we have is to a kind of "mystical" rhetoric. In this kind of system, being some kind of guru is just as important, if not more, than one's actual business acumen. Hence all the TED ta…

There are a number of domains where fads or apparently arbitrary orthodoxies emerge: clothing, music, food, art. To a certain extent architecture. Fandoms around books, or films, or comics. Theories of political economy. And management fads.

The common thread through all of these, as I see them, is that the underlying domain is complex, with an irreducible informational complexity, as well as rich and frequently highly significant interactions: the wrong clothes, accent, or music can get you laughed at, shunned, or killed, depending on the circumstances.

In the field of management, there's the need to communicate over a short order (hours, days, quarters) with a set of audiences (investors, stockholders, policymakers, employees), over dynamics which may not play out fully for years or even decades.

A significant problem is that at the levels of complexity being considered, there are systems of systems of systems -- if you're looking at a world-model view of cognition, understanding, and communications, then the problem is one of building up models of models of models, though to depths far more than three in many instances, and then communicating these effectively.

Quite frequently it's far easier to just follow the topical contours without a deep understanding. At the extreme case, you end up with cargo-culting, both figuratively and literally: aping the forms, structures, and actions of some system viewed as "successful", but with absolutely no understanding or attainment of the true dyanamics involved.

MBA culture is a part of that, and there have been a number of fads that have come along, typically with runs of ~5 - 20 years by my rough sense. I'm still planning on looking into this in more depth.

But the thought that the whole concept of a fad -- a temporary deviation from some base norm -- being a fundamental sociological dynamic with an information-theoretic underpinning strikes me as fundamentally sound.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us think Capitalism will not be the dominant organizing principle for resource management forever. Like many other -isms we expect it to have a beginning (growth) phase, a middle (status quo) phase, and an end (decline) phase. Some subset of those believe we are in the late stages of it already, thus discussion of "Late Capitalism". That doesn't necessarily mean total death—Monarchism and Totalitarianism stil…

>Some of us think Capitalism will not be the dominant organizing principle for resource management forever. markets aren't going away, unless you threaten humans to stop such actions with violence.

Markets aren't unique to capitalism. They have existed since the dawn of civilization.
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