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Sexism at Uber from Female Management

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Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manager wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts, so that's the most obvious one. It was also obviously the last straw. Often in stories like these the last straw seems pretty stupid compared to a larger problem. People have a breaking point but it's often a small thing that puts them over it, the straw that broke the camels back. Although the story doesn't spell out the gender of everyone on the t…

I'm not following at all. Where does it say the manager "wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts?" Even if so, how's that sexist? To say that something's sexist because a man gets different advice than a woman with no context is unacceptable criteria for sexism. Re: WFH, she's a junior employee (graduated in 2015) whose boss told her to "be at [her] desk to 'ensure that [she's] collaborating with the…

> Taking her claims at face value, she's not making a strong case for sexism.

Agree.

It's "just" a common case of "bad" management.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#153
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comments about the tank top were blatant sexism. The rest just seemed like terrible management.

I'm struggling to understand how that's sexism. Can you explain your criteria for sexism? (I'm asking in good faith.)

It was a comment based on her appearance (and assumedly how 'sexy' she was dressing). That's the reason.

If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it.

On the scale of sexism this isn't as bad as the other things reported about Uber (she wasn't propositioned for example), but I believe you could argue it as sexism (IANAL, you'd need to one tell you for sure).

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a reasonable accommodation in a high school, where students are expected to have out-of-control hormones and not-fully-developed judgment. In a professional office, if you have a grown-ass adult who is critically distracted by the sight of bare arms, that's their problem, not anyone else's. If they can't manage the barest scraps of self-control, they need to consider a different line of work.

It's not just high school, I'll use professional sports as a quick (but not all-inclusive) example. The Bill Belichick and Nick Saban enforce strict behavior and dress codes for their employees to simply eliminate distractions. Break the rules and they fire you. They're the most successful "mission oriented" teams of the past two decades. Uniforms contribute to the sense of "unity in direction" that the best companie…

So, distribute clothes to your employees.

Bonus: You set the message by choosing to give tshirts, shirts or suits.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read a little more carefully. The problem here isn't really "sexism", it's that "Tina" has an insecure personality that feels threatened by the people on her team, and thus is marginalizing everyone on it who sticks out in an attempt to establish dominance. You're correct that a good manager could make a comment about a tank top being inappropriate attire at a given office. But note when Tina said this: it was when t…

"that "Tina" has an insecure personality that feels threatened by the people on her team, and thus is marginalizing everyone on it who sticks out in an attempt to establish dominance." Maybe 'Tina' is a bad boss, but to take one employees gripes and accept a face value that she has they behavioural awareness to know her boss is 'insecure' is a stretch too far. Sometimes, people look at bold and arrogant people and sa…

> Maybe 'Tina' is a bad boss, but to take one employees gripes and accept a face value that she has they behavioural awareness to know her boss is 'insecure' is a stretch too far.

I would agree with you if the author of the article put forth 'insecurity' as an explanation. But she didn't; that was my interpretation of the claims presented in the story as they were written. And yes, I did take them at face value, just for the purpose of illustrating that it's plausible to wonder if there's more going on here than tank tops.

I mean, the author doesn't exhibit any behavioral awareness. The author presents one email she wrote to HR as a complaint, claims HR did nothing about it, labels her boss and HR as sexist, and says things need to change. She's more concerned with the atmosphere at Uber that allowed her complaint to be ignored than anything else.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#156
post #133
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comments about the tank top were blatant sexism. The rest just seemed like terrible management.

It would be sexism if it was directed only at women which is not specified in the blog post. If you're meeting with another manager for a transfer, its probably a good idea not to wear a tank top both sexes included.

> It would be sexism if it was directed only at women [...]

So if a manager has a department composed of 100% of one gender they can't make sexist comments about their employees' clothes because there isn't someone of the opposite gender to see if it's 'sexist'?

It sounds a lot like things I've heard used as examples of sexism in lawsuits against companies before, so I'm willing to believe that it is sexist (sounds like it fits in my mind) and I believe it's what the writer was referring to in the title (whether others think it is sexism).

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#157
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comments about the tank top were blatant sexism. The rest just seemed like terrible management.

I'm struggling to understand how that's sexism. Can you explain your criteria for sexism? (I'm asking in good faith.)

"Tina" is preying on the author's nascent anxieties about how her male co-workers perceive her body, clothing choices, etc. It's a form of harassment that's pretty obviously tailored to the author's gender (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?).

The modern use of the word "sexism" includes gender-tailored harassment. It's a broader term nowadays than just "holding a belief that women are worse at X".

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#158
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If you look how Uber HR "handled" all these problems by completely ignoring them, it's a large part of the problem.

HR only exists to keep the company free from liability.

Part of keeping the company free from liability is not enabling massive sexual harassment problems that end up causing multi-million (or billion) dollar (possibly class-action) lawsuits.

Even an ultra-strict "HR only does what's good for the company" should lead to them preventing sexual harassment issues due to legal landscape.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manager wasn't telling male workers to wear long sleeved shirts, so that's the most obvious one. It was also obviously the last straw. Often in stories like these the last straw seems pretty stupid compared to a larger problem. People have a breaking point but it's often a small thing that puts them over it, the straw that broke the camels back. Although the story doesn't spell out the gender of everyone on the t…

Just because she's female doesn't mean her sex is the reason. With such a sample, there are probably many distinguishing features for every one of the group. What if she was the only Jainist in the group, would it be religious discrimination? It's also possible "inappropriate" clothing depends on the person in question. E.g. if I'm overweight and wear really tight fitting clothing, that might be more distracting than…

> What if she was the only Jainist in the group, would it be religious discrimination?

If it had to do with her religious practices, yes. If she was singled out for no other given reason and she was the only one and the decision maker had made comments on her protected class status related to it... yes (if it walks like a duck...)

> E.g. if I'm overweight

Not a protected class without a medical note classifying it as a disability. Bad example.

The better example would be a Hijab (religiously protected class, distracting clothing), which yes, she has a right to wear as long as it doesn't directly interfere with her work (e.g. assembly line or something); just saying it is distracting does not count.

Notably, sleeveless clothing is not a fireable piece of clothing unless it is for everyone. And since it seems exceedingly unlikely that this manager is saying the same thing to her male employees (especially as the male employees are joking about it, it seems likely they would have told her), it is sexist discrimination.

> It could also be jealousy, unrelated to sex.

Except no, it was pretty clear it would have to be related to her being female if that was the case (because unless the guy was bi-sexual, it's unlikely she would be getting jealous at a male coworker doing the same thing).

> Everyone's assumption might be right, given Uber's culture. But this story isn't really conclusive by itself. Now if there were many female engineers with a lot of diversity among them under this manager, and only female engineers were banned from some work environments, then that'd be stronger evidence of sexism.

Yes, but we don't have many female engineers (~15%) to ask. And many of them report sexism quite often when leaving the field entirely. Seems a bit of a chicken and an egg if it wasn't for the fact that both the chicken and the egg are very clear about the problem when asked.

You are right. It may not be sexism. And just a shitty manager. Even so, parts of it seem like they could be sexist. She is calling it sexist. And it is representative of a shitty culture either way. And the sexism charge could have been avoided by simply having better management practices. It's almost like if you don't protect your employees bad things (like sexism, racism, etc.) can happen.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#160

If I'd be an engineer or manager at Uber now I'd quit before this whole thing blows up in their face. If you leave now then you can credibly distant yourself from this shit show, but afterwards it will be much more difficult. If you've got Uber on your CV I would not hire you, no matter how talented you are. No talent is worth the risk of poisoning the team and potentially driving out my other talents.

> If you've got Uber on your CV I would not hire you, no matter how talented you are. No talent is worth the risk of poisoning the team and potentially driving out my other talents.

Or perhaps 90% of the Uber folks just simply force to stay because they are bound by immigration, etc. I don't think "will never hire X from Y because of poisoning Z" will always stand.

I have heard that from many individual said similar comments such as "will not hire from Amazon, will not hire from FB, will not hire from MSFT", but as the company grows, you don't even got that choice. Because recruiters will find them and will get them in. Can you say that to every hire you made in a company with the size of 10000+ ?

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